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Jinn · 11-24-2010, 07:00 AM

Health concerns about backstatter are essentially nonsense; you get more background radiation from the sun at the altitude of flight then you do in a 1000 scans.

That said, I've hired a lawyer through my work to see just what the legal ramifications of refusing the backscatter and then refusing the patdown, and then attempting to continue through the area to the planes. It's a Fourth Amendment concern for me, that we're allowing other citizens to violate our rights against unreasonable search and seizure, especially without warrant. I've seen people advance the argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that airlines are free to refuse me access since they are private companies. That'd be true, if it was a private company doing these invasive scans as part of the deal. But it's not - it's a FEDERAL ORGANIZATION (e.g. the Government) violating my rights. The argument from free enterprise does not stand.

These patdowns go past the (what I already consider somewhat extreme) "Terry stop" allowed to actual officers of the law.

So far he agrees with me, that because TSA agents are not comissioned law enforcement officers they don't really have the same authority to detain or arrest. Likewise, if they tried to physically restrain me, they'd expose themselves to litigation for assault or unlawfully detaining me. If I'm not "free to go", I am detained. There have been a few cases already where people have refused both, local PD has arrived and stated that they essentially don't have the authority to arrest you either.

Worst case scenario they escort me out of the airport and fully refund my ticket (they have to fully refund). I'd really like someone to challenge the authority of the TSA - after all, none of their 'regulations' are actually laws, they are regulations decided by an unelected undersecretary. I'm not comfortable with a citizens without checks and balances deciding how federal organizations like the TSA can violate our rights. I'm not sure I'd let them 'escort me out', because it would require force on their part to physically move me. Using force to move me would be assault, and it'd only be permissible if an actual officer of the law was arresting me for a crime. What crime, I don't know.

I'm still considering (with his counsel) whether I really want to be the guinea pig. I'd hope someone with deeper pockets and more free time does it first, but I'm considering doing the above for my Christmas flight back to Colorado if things aren't changed by then.

11-24-2010, 07:00 AM	#15 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Health concerns about backstatter are essentially nonsense; you get more background radiation from the sun at the altitude of flight then you do in a 1000 scans. That said, I've hired a lawyer through my work to see just what the legal ramifications of refusing the backscatter and then refusing the patdown, and then attempting to continue through the area to the planes. It's a Fourth Amendment concern for me, that we're allowing other citizens to violate our rights against unreasonable search and seizure, especially without warrant. I've seen people advance the argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that airlines are free to refuse me access since they are private companies. That'd be true, if it was a private company doing these invasive scans as part of the deal. But it's not - it's a FEDERAL ORGANIZATION (e.g. the Government) violating my rights. The argument from free enterprise does not stand. These patdowns go past the (what I already consider somewhat extreme) "Terry stop" allowed to actual officers of the law. So far he agrees with me, that because TSA agents are not comissioned law enforcement officers they don't really have the same authority to detain or arrest. Likewise, if they tried to physically restrain me, they'd expose themselves to litigation for assault or unlawfully detaining me. If I'm not "free to go", I am detained. There have been a few cases already where people have refused both, local PD has arrived and stated that they essentially don't have the authority to arrest you either. Worst case scenario they escort me out of the airport and fully refund my ticket (they have to fully refund). I'd really like someone to challenge the authority of the TSA - after all, none of their 'regulations' are actually laws, they are regulations decided by an unelected undersecretary. I'm not comfortable with a citizens without checks and balances deciding how federal organizations like the TSA can violate our rights. I'm not sure I'd let them 'escort me out', because it would require force on their part to physically move me. Using force to move me would be assault, and it'd only be permissible if an actual officer of the law was arresting me for a crime. What crime, I don't know. I'm still considering (with his counsel) whether I really want to be the guinea pig. I'd hope someone with deeper pockets and more free time does it first, but I'm considering doing the above for my Christmas flight back to Colorado if things aren't changed by then. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 11-24-2010 at 07:04 AM..