Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
I can't believe the turn this thread took. Instead of discussing the details of the trial and the implications of it in the future, here we are debating whether show trials are a good thing.
ace, your acceptance and support of authoritarianism is a bit unnerving.
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The President of the United States, a lawyer, Constitutional law professor - stated that KSM, another Gitmo detainee, would be convicted and put to death when asked about the concerns of a civilian trial. His guarantee in light of the many concerns should be more disturbing than anything I post here. President Obama set the tone. We should not have civilian trials for enemy combatants. It is this administration that put the concept of "show trials" on the table. I think if we are going to have them, they need to turnout correctly.
Do you need me to find the President's actual quote or do you recall it?
---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
most authoritarian regimes justify themselves as being mostly about expedience.
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I have no power in this regard, so are you directing your comment to the current administration that elected to conduct "show trials"?
I enjoyed a good roller derby match back in the day, so the issue of me wanting to see a good "show trial" should be put into perspective. I am not President, not the AG, not a Supreme Court Justice, not in Congress - I just want to see justice be done and I want to send a message to those who want to kill us and not a message that we are a joke.
---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
ace, what risks were so great?
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The risk that there is a judge or juror unwilling to do what is right for some reason.
Quote:
The Bush administration tried and convicted hundreds of "terrorists" in civilian courts sinjce 9/11:
Where was your outrage in these cases, ace? Where was the risk that concerns you so much?
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This is an evolving matter. As we have gained more information it has become clear to some that many of these terrorist activities are not criminal matters and should not be treated as such, they are enemy combatants engaged in war.
My outrage is with a known guilty terrorist who killed innocent people not being found guilty for those deaths.
---------- Post added at 01:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 AM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinn
YouTube - Richard Feynman Magnets
Feynman perfectly explains the problem we have in this thread. Jump to 0m50s if the link doesn't.
If you're talking to someone who truly (and I never know with ace) believes that trials where the victor is already determined, or one where "everyone" knows the result before the trial begins, then you can't even begin to have a conversation about this trial in any sort of objective light. You're coming from entirely different assumptions, assumptions about what makes us America, about when the 'end justifies the means' (if ever), about whether being "at war" with someone should determine our actions, etc. The reason for this derailment is because ace made it a point to get his position addressed, and it's entirely a different topic than the OP's. You can't ever reach agreement on THIS issue if you don't even come from a similar set of assumptions about the rule of law or the nature of America.
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If a mass murderer has been convicted of a crime and is scheduled to be executed and he was then connected to additional murders - would you conduct a trial? If so, why? What would be the point?
Answering those questions is the opening to understanding my position. I would conduct the trials, even delay the execution, and part of the reason would be to send a message. One, the family of the victims deserves closure. Two, to show that crimes will be solved. Three, to send a message to wanna be murderers. The trial would not so much be for justice but to send those messages, for the "show". In my mind, this has nothing to do with political persecution or fabricated justice.