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crumbbum · 06-15-2003, 06:03 PM

Camp David 2 and Taba. I have heard the arguments about how the offer at camp david wasn't enough- this is irrelevant though. The whole point of NEGOTIATION is that a concensus is reached. If Arafat hadn't walked away, they could have gotten more out of the talks. And of course, the offer at Taba gave him no legitimate excuse for walking away, it was more that they had ever been offered or ever will be offered again. Frankly, I think it was insane of Barak to offer so much while Israel was under attack by terrorists. No wonder they are still attacking. In the past, brutal terrorist attacks have only gotten them greater concessions, as they still are today. If we can agree that the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians is wrong and evil, then it certainly follows that no matter what the cause, such methods should never be rewarded, thus granting them legitimacy, and also ensuring that they will continue to be used, and observed to be succesful against the west.

When a cause is obviously just, there is no need to hijack airplanes and kill as many innocent people as possible in order to grab headlines and "publicize the cause". That something needs to be done is self evident. There is no "if, then" equation that leads to such barbarity. It is a tactical choice. The tibetan buddhists were brutally expelled by the Chinese, thousands murdered, their monasteries burned, etc. They never became terrorists- their plight has gained the sympathy of the world. China, which is a huge world power, has not budged yet.
The Palestinians can't claim anywhere near such persecution. They lost their homes in a war that the arabs started, so really the responsibility for their refugee status is with the Arab countries that started the war. The world seems to forget this- I wonder how much oil has to do with it.

In the case of the Palestinians, Israel has actually been trying to improve their lives for a long time. When Israel proposed building the palestinians in refugee camps more comfortable, better living accomodations, the PLO refused. Why? The PLO makes them suffer on purpose, in order to blame Israel and generate greater world sympathy. It is a sick game being played with people's lives.

The reason this "peace plan" is doomed to fail is because it isn't dealing with the reality of the situation. The Palestinian goal is not statehood for it's own sake, in order to live and be free and go on with life. In fact it is considered a stepping stone on the way to the liberation of all of "palestine", the destruction of Israel. Any careful scrutiny of the statements by PA leadership reveals this. You should read what kinds of things Arafat said to his own people in Arabic, at the same time he was talking peace to the west. And now everyone is excited over Abbas, but not only is he powerless, he simply wants to end the terrorism as a tactical decision- believing that a temporary stop to violence will gain greater concessions and weaken Israel more. He is a PLO old-timer, and his goal is also the destruction of the state of Israel. Until both parties actually want PEACE, it is useless to proceed with peace plans that assume this. Israel wants peace becasue it doesn't have a choice- it is surrounded by enemies on all sides.

Another misconception is that the Israeli-Palestinian war somehow happens in a vacuum- in reality it is part of the greater Arab-Israeli conflict. It is actually a proxy war. Weapons are smuggled in from Egypt. Saudi Arabia funds Hamas, Iran, like it is behind Hezbollah, is also behind other terror groups. They also supply explosives and weapons. Iraq was a big player until recently. Basically, after the Arabs lost 3 wars that were attempts to wipe Israel off the map, they instead changed tactics- by supporting terrorism, and by throwing their weight politically to use "salami tactics" against Israel.

It's funny, one of the unique things about Israel is that it has the freest arab press in the entire middle east. The arab countries have a lot to learn from their only modern and democratic neighbor, and a lot to gain economically. Maybe this is what they are afraid of.

06-15-2003, 06:03 PM	#52 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Camp David 2 and Taba. I have heard the arguments about how the offer at camp david wasn't enough- this is irrelevant though. The whole point of NEGOTIATION is that a concensus is reached. If Arafat hadn't walked away, they could have gotten more out of the talks. And of course, the offer at Taba gave him no legitimate excuse for walking away, it was more that they had ever been offered or ever will be offered again. Frankly, I think it was insane of Barak to offer so much while Israel was under attack by terrorists. No wonder they are still attacking. In the past, brutal terrorist attacks have only gotten them greater concessions, as they still are today. If we can agree that the wanton slaughter of innocent civilians is wrong and evil, then it certainly follows that no matter what the cause, such methods should never be rewarded, thus granting them legitimacy, and also ensuring that they will continue to be used, and observed to be succesful against the west. When a cause is obviously just, there is no need to hijack airplanes and kill as many innocent people as possible in order to grab headlines and "publicize the cause". That something needs to be done is self evident. There is no "if, then" equation that leads to such barbarity. It is a tactical choice. The tibetan buddhists were brutally expelled by the Chinese, thousands murdered, their monasteries burned, etc. They never became terrorists- their plight has gained the sympathy of the world. China, which is a huge world power, has not budged yet. The Palestinians can't claim anywhere near such persecution. They lost their homes in a war that the arabs started, so really the responsibility for their refugee status is with the Arab countries that started the war. The world seems to forget this- I wonder how much oil has to do with it. In the case of the Palestinians, Israel has actually been trying to improve their lives for a long time. When Israel proposed building the palestinians in refugee camps more comfortable, better living accomodations, the PLO refused. Why? The PLO makes them suffer on purpose, in order to blame Israel and generate greater world sympathy. It is a sick game being played with people's lives. The reason this "peace plan" is doomed to fail is because it isn't dealing with the reality of the situation. The Palestinian goal is not statehood for it's own sake, in order to live and be free and go on with life. In fact it is considered a stepping stone on the way to the liberation of all of "palestine", the destruction of Israel. Any careful scrutiny of the statements by PA leadership reveals this. You should read what kinds of things Arafat said to his own people in Arabic, at the same time he was talking peace to the west. And now everyone is excited over Abbas, but not only is he powerless, he simply wants to end the terrorism as a tactical decision- believing that a temporary stop to violence will gain greater concessions and weaken Israel more. He is a PLO old-timer, and his goal is also the destruction of the state of Israel. Until both parties actually want PEACE, it is useless to proceed with peace plans that assume this. Israel wants peace becasue it doesn't have a choice- it is surrounded by enemies on all sides. Another misconception is that the Israeli-Palestinian war somehow happens in a vacuum- in reality it is part of the greater Arab-Israeli conflict. It is actually a proxy war. Weapons are smuggled in from Egypt. Saudi Arabia funds Hamas, Iran, like it is behind Hezbollah, is also behind other terror groups. They also supply explosives and weapons. Iraq was a big player until recently. Basically, after the Arabs lost 3 wars that were attempts to wipe Israel off the map, they instead changed tactics- by supporting terrorism, and by throwing their weight politically to use "salami tactics" against Israel. It's funny, one of the unique things about Israel is that it has the freest arab press in the entire middle east. The arab countries have a lot to learn from their only modern and democratic neighbor, and a lot to gain economically. Maybe this is what they are afraid of. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.