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roachboy · 09-13-2010, 06:55 AM

cimmaron--for what it's worth i actually in meat-space struggled a bit with this question, trying to find a way to balance my visceral revulsion over what these people wanted to do against free speech considerations. and i'm not sure i found a balance. but i'm ok with that---it's part of a process of trying to figure out a position.

the ambient conditions that made the question difficult are easy to name but hard to imagine doing anything about at an individual level: that the populist right since the end of the bush period has shifted into what i regard, and can argue for as being, neo-fascism and that this shift has gone largely unnamed in the dominant ideological system. i see this as a Problem, and a particularly american problem. if you look at comparable movements in western europe, like the french front national, you find that they're named for what they are and that this naming presents real problems for the parties getting traction. front national candidates have only once got more than 5% in a national election and that moment prompted a significant political backlash. i fail to understand why it is that the **same** ideology (with "american" substituted for "french") passes as mainstream conservatism in the states.

i attribute this to the passivity of the center/left and to the effects of far too long a period of conservative ascendancy. the right has managed to shift popular notions of "balance" into a space that naming what the populist right is can be taken as a abrogation of their prerogatives.

i see this as dangerous. and i don't believe the united states system is self-correcting. i would point to two terms of george w. bush and the war in iraq as proof.

second: the particular action terry jones proposed i found deeply, personally offensive. i found it offensive in itself and doubly so in the context of yet another mounting wave of conservative-inspired anti-muslim sentiment. this affects people i love directly. it is hard to treat this as some abstract Problem and play what i regard as stupid high-school debate team games around this issue for that reason.

i keep hoping that people will snap out of some stupor and reject the legitimacy of such actions and do something to prevent them---truth be told although i would have had little problem with a group breaking up the jones' action forcibly, i would have preferred to have seen massive counter-demonstrations that ringed it around and showed its marginality and that this sort of thing is simply unacceptable politically and ethically, and done so in a peaceful manner.

and i would have expected that fox news would show footage cut in a way parallel to how leni reifenstahl cut the crowd sequences in "triumph of the will" to produce the opposite effect.

so this was a difficult issue for me as a human being.
it's because it's difficult that i don't feel inclined to indulge stupid counters and cheap red-baiting as a response.
or maybe i'm just getting sick of debating politics here.
i haven't figured that out quite yet.

====

addendum:
riots in kashmir left 13 dead because of these people.
demonstrations in afghanistan left 3 dead.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lled-quran-row

but i guess folk are ok with that. after all, its important that american neo-fascists are free to be as foul as they want to be. and besides, the dead are just crazy brown people far away. so who cares?

09-13-2010, 06:55 AM	#178 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	cimmaron--for what it's worth i actually in meat-space struggled a bit with this question, trying to find a way to balance my visceral revulsion over what these people wanted to do against free speech considerations. and i'm not sure i found a balance. but i'm ok with that---it's part of a process of trying to figure out a position. the ambient conditions that made the question difficult are easy to name but hard to imagine doing anything about at an individual level: that the populist right since the end of the bush period has shifted into what i regard, and can argue for as being, neo-fascism and that this shift has gone largely unnamed in the dominant ideological system. i see this as a Problem, and a particularly american problem. if you look at comparable movements in western europe, like the french front national, you find that they're named for what they are and that this naming presents real problems for the parties getting traction. front national candidates have only once got more than 5% in a national election and that moment prompted a significant political backlash. i fail to understand why it is that the same ideology (with "american" substituted for "french") passes as mainstream conservatism in the states. i attribute this to the passivity of the center/left and to the effects of far too long a period of conservative ascendancy. the right has managed to shift popular notions of "balance" into a space that naming what the populist right is can be taken as a abrogation of their prerogatives. i see this as dangerous. and i don't believe the united states system is self-correcting. i would point to two terms of george w. bush and the war in iraq as proof. second: the particular action terry jones proposed i found deeply, personally offensive. i found it offensive in itself and doubly so in the context of yet another mounting wave of conservative-inspired anti-muslim sentiment. this affects people i love directly. it is hard to treat this as some abstract Problem and play what i regard as stupid high-school debate team games around this issue for that reason. i keep hoping that people will snap out of some stupor and reject the legitimacy of such actions and do something to prevent them---truth be told although i would have had little problem with a group breaking up the jones' action forcibly, i would have preferred to have seen massive counter-demonstrations that ringed it around and showed its marginality and that this sort of thing is simply unacceptable politically and ethically, and done so in a peaceful manner. and i would have expected that fox news would show footage cut in a way parallel to how leni reifenstahl cut the crowd sequences in "triumph of the will" to produce the opposite effect. so this was a difficult issue for me as a human being. it's because it's difficult that i don't feel inclined to indulge stupid counters and cheap red-baiting as a response. or maybe i'm just getting sick of debating politics here. i haven't figured that out quite yet. ==== addendum: riots in kashmir left 13 dead because of these people. demonstrations in afghanistan left 3 dead. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lled-quran-row but i guess folk are ok with that. after all, its important that american neo-fascists are free to be as foul as they want to be. and besides, the dead are just crazy brown people far away. so who cares? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-13-2010 at 07:34 AM..