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Willravel · 08-28-2010, 05:33 PM

I don't consider anything about the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan a game, least of which the excuses used by apologists to excuse staying there. This is serious and the red herring about me being disingenuous isn't going to distract me one bit. People are dying every day and if it can be prevented, it should be.

If the way you were using 'broke' specifically means invading and removing the government, the US has done that to more countries than Iraq and Afghanistan. 20 years ago, the United States invaded Panama and overthrew Manuel Noriega, a man in power because he played ball with the CIA during the cold war (wait, that sounds familiar). Do you know what Panama has looked like since the invasion? For several weeks after the invasion, the country descended into chaos and lawlessness. There was widespread looting so significant that it had a substantial consequence on the Panamanian economy. In the later aftermath, Panama saw tens of thousands of people become refugees, urban warfare, gangs, drugs (worse than before), and while the GDP finally reached where it had been again in the mid 90s, unemployment has still not yet recovered. The only thing the US did was give $6,500 each to families displaced by the Chorrillo fire. That's it. We didn't help them get their government in order, we didn't rebuild the infrastructure we destroyed, we didn't help to police the state so as to lessen looting or gang violence, and we certainly didn't stick around for years.

The point I'm trying to make is your excuse, which is used commonly in trying to explain why we should stay in Iraq and Afghanistan, is unreasonable and it's not something you're required in the past. If we did have a policy of fixing problems we've created in other countries, that's all we'd ever do because it's common for the US to meddle in the affairs of other nations, especially militarily. Right now we've got drone attacks going on in many countries.

Here's honesty for you: I don't think we're doing anything tangibly beneficial by staying in the Middle East. We are, however, doing substantial, demonstrable harm not just to the people in the region, but eventually ourselves. 9/11 was about excessive US meddling in the Middle East, especially in respect to Israel and Palestine. If you don't think there will be blowback from Iraq and Afghanistan, you're not watching the news.

08-28-2010, 05:33 PM	#73 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I don't consider anything about the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan a game, least of which the excuses used by apologists to excuse staying there. This is serious and the red herring about me being disingenuous isn't going to distract me one bit. People are dying every day and if it can be prevented, it should be. If the way you were using 'broke' specifically means invading and removing the government, the US has done that to more countries than Iraq and Afghanistan. 20 years ago, the United States invaded Panama and overthrew Manuel Noriega, a man in power because he played ball with the CIA during the cold war (wait, that sounds familiar). Do you know what Panama has looked like since the invasion? For several weeks after the invasion, the country descended into chaos and lawlessness. There was widespread looting so significant that it had a substantial consequence on the Panamanian economy. In the later aftermath, Panama saw tens of thousands of people become refugees, urban warfare, gangs, drugs (worse than before), and while the GDP finally reached where it had been again in the mid 90s, unemployment has still not yet recovered. The only thing the US did was give $6,500 each to families displaced by the Chorrillo fire. That's it. We didn't help them get their government in order, we didn't rebuild the infrastructure we destroyed, we didn't help to police the state so as to lessen looting or gang violence, and we certainly didn't stick around for years. The point I'm trying to make is your excuse, which is used commonly in trying to explain why we should stay in Iraq and Afghanistan, is unreasonable and it's not something you're required in the past. If we did have a policy of fixing problems we've created in other countries, that's all we'd ever do because it's common for the US to meddle in the affairs of other nations, especially militarily. Right now we've got drone attacks going on in many countries. Here's honesty for you: I don't think we're doing anything tangibly beneficial by staying in the Middle East. We are, however, doing substantial, demonstrable harm not just to the people in the region, but eventually ourselves. 9/11 was about excessive US meddling in the Middle East, especially in respect to Israel and Palestine. If you don't think there will be blowback from Iraq and Afghanistan, you're not watching the news.