levite

Although generally this is the kind of discussion I make an effort to keep out of, merely because I often find the anti-religion attitudes that tend to emerge in atheist threads (and I mean in general, on the internet, not necessarily at TFP), I do feel compelled to put in a brief something here.

Hal, I think your article does make some good points in that you state that in attempts to "convince" each other of the validity of their respective viewpoints, atheists and believers tend to talk past one another, because the same things are not necessarily valued and experienced as desirable, or even tangible, by both parties.

But it's for that reason that I tend to unilaterally disapprove of the entire process of trying to "convince" someone about religion or the absence thereof. As a Jew-- to say nothing of as a rabbi-- I have no business telling non-Jews what to think or believe or say. And as a responsible member of the Jewish people, it is my duty to be tolerant of the disagreements among our people in the name of shalom bayit b'Vet Yakov ("keeping peace within the House of Jacob") and for the sake of keeping my distance from lashon hara ("evil speech") and sinat chinam ("baseless hatred"). And as a responsible rabbi, only if I felt that a Jew were trying to live an observant life in participation with the Jewish community might I even consider confronting such an individual (in private, and politely) about beliefs or statements incompatible with Judaism.

My feeling as a Jew is that, while I might find it personally unfortunate for someone if they don't or won't experience God in their lives, it bears no relevance to me. So long as a person is good, and socially responsible, and not hurtful to others, their spiritual beliefs are a matter between them and God. If He has a problem with them, He can take it up with them Himself.

It would be arrogant at best of me to attempt to change the beliefs of a non-Jew, and probably pointless at best to attempt changing the beliefs of another Jew. There is a good reason Jews are forbidden to proselytize, and I think the same principle should apply to polemical debates, as well. My position is that of Reb Levi Yitzchak of Berditchev, who, when confronted by a certain Hasid, who was urging the Rebbe to swift and decisive action against a harmless and good-natured heretic, said: Loz leben (usually rendered "Live and let live," or "Let it be," but more accurately in tone-- if more loosely in literal translation-- "Get a life").

I tend to think that this position is worth embracing by other religions as well, and I know many Christians and Muslims who would certainly agree with what I have said, though I have encountered plenty of Christians who seem to feel otherwise, also.

My hope would be that atheists could take the same tack.

I guess what I am saying is that trying to convince each other is a massive waste of time. As you point out in your piece, there is never agreement, nor is there ever likely to be.

So as long as we can not get in each other's faces about what "ought" to be believed or not, who cares? I honestly don't know why I ought to be bothered about your atheism. I can't imagine why you should be bothered by my belief. I respect you. Gauging from your posts, I feel like it's not out of line for me to say that I like you. I presume you respect me also, because you've never given me cause to think otherwise. And if not, well, that's a shame, but hardly cause for strife. So why should we waste each other's time trying to change what can only be changed from within? The same principle, IMO, applies in general.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)