Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Official Debate #2: Should children believe in Santa Claus?

Willravel · 08-07-2010, 05:21 PM

Excellent points.

Still, I find myself asking a few questions:

- Are Santa Claus and consumerism intrinsically linked? I love the commercial when Santa is riding on a razor as much as the next person, in fact I downloaded it and watch it every year, but gift-giving doesn't necessarily mean obeying commercials and replacing real worth with material worth.

The best Christmas I ever had was back when I was very young and my family was quite poor. We couldn't afford lavish gifts even if we wanted, so instead of giving something of material worth, we gave something of immense personal worth. In fact, when I look back, it wasn't the 18-speed bicycle or PlayStation 2 I remember being the best Christmas presents. It was a surprise visit from an Uncle with hand-made toys or a hand-me-down Apple Color Classic. These things were divorced entirely from mindless, soulless consumerism and cut right to the core of what gift-giving really is, a personal connection between people. The perfect gift doesn't have to cost a ton of money or come from a mall.

- Does the story of Santa Claus teach children to expect material rewards for good behavior? In a vacuum, possibly, but the story of Santa Claus doesn't happen separately from overall parenting. Good behavior, or rather a balance of selfish and selflessness and the ability to understand and follow just rules, doesn't begin and end at Santa, but with an overall parenting strategy. Good behavior is born of consistency, explaining why behavior is good, and, yes, positive reinforcement.

If your child is good, don't you want to reward that behavior as one part of a larger set of responses in order to nurture positive growth? I certainly would. When I used to clean my room, do some chores around the house and not get into too much trouble, I would get an allowance. If I wasn't good or failed to follow the house rules, what right would I have to expect a reward? It's positive reinforcement as a part of a larger style of parenting, and based on my best understanding it helps to contribute to a healthy, happy, well-adjusted adult.

- How does Santa Claus inspire imagination? As adults, it can be difficult to remember that wonder for children is vastly different than wonder for adults. The vastness of space, the processes of evolution, and the art of Chopin's music all fill me with wonder, but it's wonder earned through years of study and based on extensive (relatively speaking) education. Children commonly lack the educational foundation and context necessary to understand the wonder of the universe around them. It's not a failing by any measure, but a part of intellectual and emotional development. No, when it comes to wonder in children you'd be more successful looking to Star Wars than to Carl Sagan. Over time, this will change with the right parenting, but when your 5-year-old needs to be wowed, a good bet is Santa Claus.

This is a true story. When I was 5, I set a trap. I took an old disposable camera with one picture left, and I put it on the mantle, hiding it carefully behind some pine garland with just enough open that the lens was exposed. Just to the side, I put a fulcrum and atop a lever with the far end of the lever attached to a stocking and the end of the lever closer to the fulcrum right on top of the button that took pictures. The theory was that when enough weight was put on the lever, by a full stocking, the camera would take a picture. The afternoon before, the neighborhood kids and I had all formulated a strategy to catch Santa Claus, so they were all setting up similar surveillance. It was like cctv for kids. Christmas came and went, and the photos were developed. I asked to see them first and anxiously found the last image. I saw a man in a red suit with a big white beard smiling. My dad had discovered my trap and outsmarted me. I've heard similar stories from all sorts of friends about their experiences with Santa Claus, how it was an adventure for them, not just some story they mindlessly believed.

- Can Santa Claus play nice with Moses or Jesus or Muhammad? I'm probably not the right person to ask, but I can try and offer my perspective. Every theistic religion I know of, even the ones claiming to be monotheistic, are secretly either polytheistic or psedo-polytheistic. Ask a Jewish person about Moses parting the Red Sea or a Christian about Paul curing a lame man or a Muslim about Muhammad breaking the moon in half, and suddenly you'll realize it's not just the one true god that violates the laws of physics. It's actually quite common for non-deities to perform supernatural acts in most religions.

So where does Santa Claus fit in? Nowhere, actually. While St. Nicholas was a Catholic bishop, Santa Claus is generally a secular supernatural character with no real ties to religion. And that's fine. Just like it's fine when some Christians believe in karma or some Jewish people have a feng shui house. While some people are rigid about religion, most people actually aren't. Religion is deeply personal and highly varied in interpretation. If one Christian believes in the power of positive thought and another doesn't, who am I or anyone else to correct one or both of them? It doesn't stop either of them from being Christian.

And really, if Christians have a problem with Santa Claus getting top billing over the birth of their savior, maybe they should look into celebrating the birth of Jesus when it likely actually happened some time between March and October. December 25th has nothing at all to do with the Birth of Christ.

- What about the godless heathens, the atheists/agnostics? As a heathen, I see the story of Santa Claus a lot differently than I see the theistic stories. The Abrahamic myths include barbarism, slaughter and genocide, rape, sacrifice, vengeance and a whole host of things that I would never want my children to be taught is unquestionably true. And it's that unquestioning part that's really the worst. I want my children to ask questions because that's how you get to truth.

Better still, though, as an atheist I would want my children to be ready for a world of theists. What better way than to give them a sort of vaccination, a weakened, smaller, easier to fight off religion that can help them build an immunity to more serious religions in the future. I know this point is a huge departure from the general feeling my my arguments above, but it's something worth considering. If you as a parent are concerned about your children getting sucked into a cult or religion when they get older, perhaps the best thing you can do for them is show them what it's like to believe in something false and find out about it. I know I didn't resent my parents when I found out Santa isn't real and I don't know of anyone who does.

08-07-2010, 05:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Excellent points. Still, I find myself asking a few questions: - Are Santa Claus and consumerism intrinsically linked? I love the commercial when Santa is riding on a razor as much as the next person, in fact I downloaded it and watch it every year, but gift-giving doesn't necessarily mean obeying commercials and replacing real worth with material worth. The best Christmas I ever had was back when I was very young and my family was quite poor. We couldn't afford lavish gifts even if we wanted, so instead of giving something of material worth, we gave something of immense personal worth. In fact, when I look back, it wasn't the 18-speed bicycle or PlayStation 2 I remember being the best Christmas presents. It was a surprise visit from an Uncle with hand-made toys or a hand-me-down Apple Color Classic. These things were divorced entirely from mindless, soulless consumerism and cut right to the core of what gift-giving really is, a personal connection between people. The perfect gift doesn't have to cost a ton of money or come from a mall. - Does the story of Santa Claus teach children to expect material rewards for good behavior? In a vacuum, possibly, but the story of Santa Claus doesn't happen separately from overall parenting. Good behavior, or rather a balance of selfish and selflessness and the ability to understand and follow just rules, doesn't begin and end at Santa, but with an overall parenting strategy. Good behavior is born of consistency, explaining why behavior is good, and, yes, positive reinforcement. If your child is good, don't you want to reward that behavior as one part of a larger set of responses in order to nurture positive growth? I certainly would. When I used to clean my room, do some chores around the house and not get into too much trouble, I would get an allowance. If I wasn't good or failed to follow the house rules, what right would I have to expect a reward? It's positive reinforcement as a part of a larger style of parenting, and based on my best understanding it helps to contribute to a healthy, happy, well-adjusted adult. - How does Santa Claus inspire imagination? As adults, it can be difficult to remember that wonder for children is vastly different than wonder for adults. The vastness of space, the processes of evolution, and the art of Chopin's music all fill me with wonder, but it's wonder earned through years of study and based on extensive (relatively speaking) education. Children commonly lack the educational foundation and context necessary to understand the wonder of the universe around them. It's not a failing by any measure, but a part of intellectual and emotional development. No, when it comes to wonder in children you'd be more successful looking to Star Wars than to Carl Sagan. Over time, this will change with the right parenting, but when your 5-year-old needs to be wowed, a good bet is Santa Claus. This is a true story. When I was 5, I set a trap. I took an old disposable camera with one picture left, and I put it on the mantle, hiding it carefully behind some pine garland with just enough open that the lens was exposed. Just to the side, I put a fulcrum and atop a lever with the far end of the lever attached to a stocking and the end of the lever closer to the fulcrum right on top of the button that took pictures. The theory was that when enough weight was put on the lever, by a full stocking, the camera would take a picture. The afternoon before, the neighborhood kids and I had all formulated a strategy to catch Santa Claus, so they were all setting up similar surveillance. It was like cctv for kids. Christmas came and went, and the photos were developed. I asked to see them first and anxiously found the last image. I saw a man in a red suit with a big white beard smiling. My dad had discovered my trap and outsmarted me. I've heard similar stories from all sorts of friends about their experiences with Santa Claus, how it was an adventure for them, not just some story they mindlessly believed. - Can Santa Claus play nice with Moses or Jesus or Muhammad? I'm probably not the right person to ask, but I can try and offer my perspective. Every theistic religion I know of, even the ones claiming to be monotheistic, are secretly either polytheistic or psedo-polytheistic. Ask a Jewish person about Moses parting the Red Sea or a Christian about Paul curing a lame man or a Muslim about Muhammad breaking the moon in half, and suddenly you'll realize it's not just the one true god that violates the laws of physics. It's actually quite common for non-deities to perform supernatural acts in most religions. So where does Santa Claus fit in? Nowhere, actually. While St. Nicholas was a Catholic bishop, Santa Claus is generally a secular supernatural character with no real ties to religion. And that's fine. Just like it's fine when some Christians believe in karma or some Jewish people have a feng shui house. While some people are rigid about religion, most people actually aren't. Religion is deeply personal and highly varied in interpretation. If one Christian believes in the power of positive thought and another doesn't, who am I or anyone else to correct one or both of them? It doesn't stop either of them from being Christian. And really, if Christians have a problem with Santa Claus getting top billing over the birth of their savior, maybe they should look into celebrating the birth of Jesus when it likely actually happened some time between March and October. December 25th has nothing at all to do with the Birth of Christ. - What about the godless heathens, the atheists/agnostics? As a heathen, I see the story of Santa Claus a lot differently than I see the theistic stories. The Abrahamic myths include barbarism, slaughter and genocide, rape, sacrifice, vengeance and a whole host of things that I would never want my children to be taught is unquestionably true. And it's that unquestioning part that's really the worst. I want my children to ask questions because that's how you get to truth. Better still, though, as an atheist I would want my children to be ready for a world of theists. What better way than to give them a sort of vaccination, a weakened, smaller, easier to fight off religion that can help them build an immunity to more serious religions in the future. I know this point is a huge departure from the general feeling my my arguments above, but it's something worth considering. If you as a parent are concerned about your children getting sucked into a cult or religion when they get older, perhaps the best thing you can do for them is show them what it's like to believe in something false and find out about it. I know I didn't resent my parents when I found out Santa isn't real and I don't know of anyone who does.