Natural manhood

Oh, so this came to banning pretty soon.

Cynthetiq, you're going to ban my thread because I challenge and threaten your society's heterosexual ideology that it is based on (that marginalizes intimacy between men.). You're indeed a bad administrator. An administrator would be expected to be neutral, and not judge a thread based on whether he/ she likes the topic or agrees with it or not. You had no business to discuss the issue with me in the first place, if you're not mature enough to stomach something like this.

I should not have to give any sources for any claims. Your rules no where say, that I can't talk out of my personal experiences or opinions. If this is the freedom that your society talks about (so called, freedom of expression), then I must say, an Islamic autocratic society is much better, for whatever it does, it doesn't hide the fact that it supresses the truth.

However, I don't want to give you a false reason for banning me, so, I'll once again lay down the sources that I've already given. You will go ahead and ban me in any case. But, that will only expose your own fears -- that your lives are all lies.

Also, may I again point out your incompetency or partiality in being an adminstrator, because, I have already posted these sources at various places, so for you to claim that I have not posted sources are indeed partial.

Here are a few sources, once again:

1. Claim 1: "Homosexual" is a concept developed by the third genders or the intermediate sex or the effeminate males who liked men, as a term to define themselves.

Sources:


Sex and the Gender Revolution, Volume 1
Heterosexuality and the Third Gender in Enlightenment LondonRandolph Trumbach


Source for the fact that the person who started the 'homosexual' category was a 'third sex', a female soul trapped inside a male body, and he developed the term for himself and (what he thought of as) others like himself:

"The term Homosexual" by Rictor Norton

Quote: "For the first time in European history, there emerged three genders: men, women, and a third gender of adult effeminate sodomites, or homosexuals. This third gender had radical consequences for the sexual lives of most men and women since it promoted an opposing ideal of exclusive heterosexuality."

" ..... The one person most responsible for the creation of the labels to be used in the discourse about homosexuality was Karl Heinrich Ulrichs (1825–95). He was a German law student, secretary to various civil servants and diplomats, and a journalist – he was not a medical doctor."


Source for the fact that people who propagated the category of 'homosexual' were all 'third sex' (not even one was non-third sex):

"A false birth" by Rictor Norton.

Quotes: Here is an account of people who were responsible for developing the concept of 'homosexual" -- as indicated by the 'birth of homosexual.'

"Carpenter’s more polemical book The Intermediate Sex also had a profound impact, upon women as well as men...

... but only three years later Carpenter’s book had helped her to realize that she was not simply a feminist, but a lesbian feminist, as she wrote to him: ‘I have recently read with much interest your book entitled The Intermediate Sex & it has lately dawned on me that I myself belong to that class & I write to ask if there is any way of getting in touch with others of the same temperament’ (cited by Newton 1984).

... In the year 1870 – the year designated by Foucault as the date of birth of the queer – Ernest Boulton and Frederick William Park, otherwise known as Lady Stella Clinton and Miss Fanny Winifred Park, were arrested in London after a year-long surveillance by the police of their practice of soliciting men in the Burlington Arcade and outside theatres while wearing women’s clothes. It transpired that they and their associates stored vast quantities of dresses, petticoats, gloves and make-up at an accommodation address.
..... More than 1,000 love-letters and photographs were discovered during the police search of the boyfriends’ premises, and many letters were read out in court. The letters refer to ‘going about in drag’, ‘getting screwed’, growing a moustache in order to pretend to be more manly for the sake of a boyfriend’s mother while staying with him in Scotland, and a great deal of camp behaviour that is not noticeably dissimilar to the behaviour of drag queens in the 1990s.

..... The painter Simeon Solomon (1840–1905) sums up his own pre-watershed gay life:

As an infant he . . . developed a tendency toward designing. . . . He was hated by all of his family before he was eighteen. He was eighteen at the time he was sent to Paris. His behaviour there was so disgraceful that his family – the Nathans, Solomons, Moses, Cohens, etc., et hoc genus homo – would have nothing to do with him. He returned to London to pursue his disgraceful course of Art . . . His "Vision of Love Revealed in Sleep" is too well known. After the publication of this [in 1871] his family repudiated him forever. (quoted by Conner 1997)

..... Edith Simcox She analyzes her own ‘development’, including characteristic features such as a tomboy stage, lack of interest in marriage or men, lack of sympathy in girls’ things: ‘I didn’t care for dolls or dresses or any sort of needlework’, and attachments to older girls whom she used to caress. She felt a ‘constitutional want of charm for men’ and that her love for women indicated that she was ‘half a man’.

...... Wilde was portrayed in the popular media as a mincing pansy well before the trials, drawing upon the single most prevalent paradigm of homosexual identity (including self-identification): the effeminate pervert as satirized by Juvenal.

..... This paradigm was well-established long before Ulrichs and Hirschfeld developed theories about the 'third sex' (indeed these theories were derived from Plato's Symposium) or 'a woman's soul trapped in a man's body'.

It is interesting to note that the Walt whitman, who was not of 'intermediate sex' hated the idea of a 'homosexual' ... as noted in the article:

"... It is argued that ‘Whitman himself stubbornly resisted the notion of a distinctive homosexual sensibility’ (D’Emilio 1993)"


CLAIM II

Most men have a sexual desire for men, and its not a quality restricted to a few. There are very few males who are exclusively heterosexual.

Sex and the Gender Revolution, Volume 1 Heterosexuality and the Third Gender in Enlightenment LondonRandolph Trumbach


Quote:

"... the majority of men became heterosexuals by avoiding sodomy and sodomite behavior."

"... As men defined themselves more and more as heterosexuals, women generally experienced the new male heterosexuality as its victims."

- Evidence that whenever allowed, straight men widely engage in sexual relations with men, even if they have a harem of women for wives.

Closely watched Pashtuns-a critique of western journalists’
reporting bias about ‘Gay Kandahar’

Quote:

"The Making of a Minority
Western views on homosexuality can be neatly divided into two
overarching traditions: a Freudian school that sees all sexuality as
“polymorphous” and homosexuality as one position on a fluid
continuum; and a gay liberationist view that sees homosexuality as a
distinct identity analogous to that of an ethnic minority. In Kandahar,
there is clearly no sense in which homosexuality constitutes a
minority identity—but this did not prevent Western journalists from
constantly using the language of the Western gay rights movement to
describe it. Thus, for example, faced with estimates from her informants
that “between 18% and 45% of men [in Kandahar] engage in
homosexual sex,” Maura Reynolds observed dryly that this is
“significantly higher than the 3% to 7% of American men who,
according to studies, identify themselves as homosexual.”
Journalists repeatedly used Western concepts such as “gay” and
“the closet” to characterize the Kandahar situation, thus imposing
their notion of homosexuality as a minority identity. The term “gay”
is used in the title of the New York Post article—“A Gay Old Afghan
Time Again”—as well as in the article itself: “Men accused of being
gay were executed by having a wall toppled on them.” The word also
appears in the headline of Smucker and Kili’s story, “The Royal
Marines and a Gay Warlord,” even though the Afghan doctor quoted
by Reynolds cautions that, among the Kandaharis, “homosexuality is
what they do, not what they are.” The picture of homosexual behavior
that emerges in even the shortest press accounts is complicated and,
to the Western eye, contradictory. Smucker and Kili’s article profiles
an Afghan warlord, Malim Jan, who has “two wives and ‘several
boyfriends,’” and who has now taken a fancy to the Royal Marines
visiting his camp."

"The Making of a Minority
Western views on homosexuality can be neatly divided into two
overarching traditions: a Freudian school that sees all sexuality as
“polymorphous” and homosexuality as one position on a fluid
continuum; and a gay liberationist view that sees homosexuality as a
distinct identity analogous to that of an ethnic minority. In Kandahar,
there is clearly no sense in which homosexuality constitutes a
minority identity—but this did not prevent Western journalists from
constantly using the language of the Western gay rights movement to
describe it. Thus, for example, faced with estimates from her informants
that “between 18% and 45% of men [in Kandahar] engage in
homosexual sex,” Maura Reynolds observed dryly that this is
“significantly higher than the 3% to 7% of American men who,
according to studies, identify themselves as homosexual.”

"But if Kandaharis seem unwilling to speak about their sex lives, as Journalists repeatedly used Western concepts such as “gay” and
“the closet” to characterize the Kandahar situation, thus imposing
their notion of homosexuality as a minority identity. The term “gay”
is used in the title of the New York Post article—“A Gay Old Afghan
Time Again”—as well as in the article itself: “Men accused of being
gay were executed by having a wall toppled on them.” The word also
appears in the headline of Smucker and Kili’s story, “The Royal
Marines and a Gay Warlord,” even though the Afghan doctor quoted
by Reynolds cautions that, among the Kandaharis, “homosexuality is
what they do, not what they are.” The picture of homosexual behavior
that emerges in even the shortest press accounts is complicated and,
to the Western eye, contradictory. Smucker and Kili’s article profiles
an Afghan warlord, Malim Jan, who has “two wives and ‘several
boyfriends,’” and who has now taken a fancy to the Royal Marines
visiting his camp."

"The tendency of Western observers to focus on instances
of abuse was matched by a tendency to reduce same-sex relations to a
Pashtun “obsession with sodomy.” Despite the jocular tone of these
exposés, their subtext was clearly aimed at discrediting the Pashtun
tradition by equating it with the ultimate American taboo, adult sex with
minors.
A secret in plain view
Modern Western cultures, particularly Anglo-American ones, construct
homosexuality as a secret—as the secret, according to Eve Kosofsky
Sedgwick in The Epistemology of the Closet (1990); but this is not
necessarily the way that other cultures have constructed it. Western
journalists relentlessly projected onto Kandahar the two great secrets of
contemporary American society: closeted homosexuality and child
abuse. Viewing homosexuality as something that’s kept secret, Western
journalists found the patterns of silence and disclosure in Afghanistan
to be rather baffling. They noted, on the one hand, a reluctance on the
part of Kandaharis to discuss their homosexual liaisons..."

"Tim Reid noted, “there appears to be no shame or furtiveness” in the
behavior of male-male couples. Michael Griffin, also of the Times,
reflecting on the history of these relations, declared that “in Pashtun
society, man-woman love was the one that dared not speak its name:
boy courtesans conducted their affairs openly.” Reid wrote of pre-
1994 Kandahar, where “the streets were filled with teenagers and
their sugar daddies, flaunting their relationship.” It’s a bit ironic that
Reid’s exposé was titled “Kandahar Comes out of the Closet,” for it
promises an act of disclosure that the Pashtuns fail to deliver. At the
same time, the Pashtuns’ behavior suggests a lack of shame that’s
inconsistent with the Western view of “the closet.” Reid seems to be
caught in the paradox of Western sexual discourse, which (as Foucault
argued) is organized around the imperative to control sexual behavior
by talking about it. In the end, Reid squares Kandahari behavior with
Western expectations only by castigating the Pashtun for “lying” to
avoid the subject and for “flaunting” their behavior in public.


"

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------

Got to go now. More later ... five hours -- are you a dictator or what ...

The point I'm trying to raise becomes even clearer now...

Do you think you could have said that a hundred years ago.

The western society has mainstreamed 'whore' and removed its stigma, because aggressive female sexuality is important to force heterosexualization on men. It has elevated 'whore' to a 'normal' position, and almost every woman is supposed to behave 'sluttily' -- and most representations of women on the western media is like that.

Heterosexualization of my society is following the same process. Liberating the whore from persecution.

Nothing wrong with that, but, compare this with the marginalization of man-man desire as 'gay'. If a woman is accused of being a whore today, several mainstream, powerful, voices raise for her support as "I'm a whore too."

That takes the stigma away from the word. (not that any of you would really like to be called a whore in day to day discourse. It's only for the sake of a discussion).

If I say, I'm gay, how many normal, mainstream, manly men (and not 'females trapped inside male bodies) will come out in my support and say "I'm gay dude." Then I have do go it alone. Be ridiculed, opposed and put down by some.

Also, would you really want the kind of division of women into 'straight' 'normal' women and 'whores' -- the way man-to-man love is isolated and categorized separately?