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Originally Posted by Natural manhood
You are so obsessed with upholding your own system that you fail to open up your mind to new wisdom.
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NM, nothing you have to say here seems new to me......... and I definitely don't find your definitions of human sexuality and gender to be wisdom based at all, as a matter of FACT I find your thinking very antiquated.
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Originally Posted by Natural manhood
I tried to see if there is any information on the net that says Pierre calls himself gay, I couldn't find it. Not that it matters. A lot of non-Queer males that like men exclusively are forced to take up 'gay' identity in the West, because they neither have any option nor knowledge. They may even think its a valid definition space. But, the point is they're always uncomortable. They live there like misfits. Perhaps you as a woman, and the gays don't care a shit about them.
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Let me help you,
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[Pierre's mother and the rest of his large French-Canadian family have been supportive and accepting of his homosexuality. Pierre never according to this account, experienced any psychological crisis in developing a homosexual or gay identity. (Note A7)]
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It is understood:
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Khan S (2005). Assessment of sexual health needs of males who have sex with males in Laos and Thailand: Some reference resources. Naz Foundation International.
The other realm, the one that was once more difficult for foreigners to find and participate in, has always been there. It is the more private, personal world in which Thai gay men seek the company of other men... This evolution from a conspicuous Thai gay world that is primarily commercial-sex oriented to what might be described as more peer oriented (or non-commercial sex oriented) might seem “backward” to some.
For those Western gay men who came out after Stonewall, all this might seem odd or even baffling, because we expect a distinctive gay identity and a gay world. Although male-to-male sexual behavior is universal, an identity based on it is not.
In other words, having sex with another man, and even loving another man, does not require an identity—an “I am not like other men” identity or even “I am different from other men” identity, let alone an “I am gay” identity. Such a phenomenon may occur in a society that doesn’t explicitly acknowledge it or in one, like Thailand, that doesn’t explicitly proscribe it.
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Yet YOU proscribe it, you label gays and effeminate men as the “third gender” you separate them from not only other men, you separate them from women also, YOU FORCE men to choose which “gender space” they will reside in based on whether they give or receive……. YOU do this to your own men, the west does not define men by sexual preference, we simply try not to even care what happens in someone’s bedroom, unless THEY WANT to share it. It seems now that the east has begun to find personal freedoms more they are becoming more aware of the natural homosexual inclinations of man and are trying to segregate them by creating an entire new gender…… This is NOT a western idea.
and as for that new gender not being based in degrading effeminacy, hmmmm.
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Dollimore, Jonathan (1991). Sexual Dissdence: Augustine to Wilder, Freud to Foucault. New York: Oxford University Press: 211……
As for male bonding, this is the grotesque expression of a "paralysed and unspoken homosexuality,” which can be grasped in the negative, in the denial of women, whom [males] speak of phallocratically... reducing them to a hole, i.e. to somethig that does not exist. The suppression of the homoeroticism is here always bound up with the oppression of women by men. The negated homosexual desire makes a resurgence via the negation of women.' [Quoting: Mielle, Mario (1980). Homosexuality and Liberation: Elements of a Gay Critique. London: Gay Men's Press: 34, 127.]
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These quotes come from extensions of your quotes, you should really try to read your own material better as you continue to contradict yourself in trying to explain why you prefer to stay locked in your own personal “closet” of self-defining in which you attempt to PROVE that a man who sticks his dick into another man is not gay, but a man who allows another man to stick his dick into him is, and not only is he gay he is actually a woman using his butt as a vagina…… do you have any idea how crazy this sounds…….
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The Kingdom in the Closet: (Alternate Link) (Alternate Link) (Alternate Link)
Sodomy is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, but gay life flourishes there. Why it is “easier to be gay than straight” in a society where everyone, homosexual and otherwise, lives in the closet... “It’s a lot easier to be gay than straight here,” he had said. “If you go out with a girl, people will start to ask her questions. But if I have a date upstairs and my family is downstairs, they won’t even come up.” ... "They’re quite shameless about it." Talal, a Syrian who moved to Riyadh in 2000, calls the Saudi capital a "gay heaven." This is surprising enough.
But what seems more startling, at least from a Western perspective, is that some of the men having sex with other men don’t consider themselves gay. For many Saudis, the fact that a man has sex with another man has little to do with "gayness." The act may fulfill a desire or a need, but it doesn’t constitute an identity. Nor does it strip a man of his masculinity, as long as he is in the "top," or active, role. This attitude gives Saudi men who engage in homosexual behavior a degree of freedom.
But as a more Westernized notion of gayness -- a notion that stresses orientation over acts -- takes hold in the country, will this delicate balance survive? ... When Yasser hit puberty, he grew attracted to his male cousins. Like many gay and lesbian teenagers everywhere, he felt isolated. "I used to have the feeling that I was the queerest in the country," he recalled. "But then I went to high school and discovered there are others like me. Then I find out, it’s a whole society." ,,, In Saudi Arabia, "It’s easier to be a lesbian [than a heterosexual]. There’s an overwhelming number of people who turn to lesbianism," Yasmin said, adding that the number of men in the kingdom who turn to gay sex is even greater. "They’re not really homosexual," she said. "They’re like cell mates in prison."
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“They’re not really homosexual, They’re like call mates in prison”……… sad.
Talk about lack of freedom to express one’s sexuality for the opposite gender, you degrade masculine/feminine sex so much that you deem your entire homosexual nation as being akin to cell mates having sex with one another and then justify it as a non-homosexual act merely because you have removed your opportunities to have healthy heterosexual sex and real relationships with women by belittling anything effeminate.
This is not about male on male sex; this is about oppressing anything effeminized, especially men who identify with the receiving side of their homosexuality.
NM, did you ever consider that it is the segregation of women from men altogether that may be leading to, and in some instances instigating altogether, some of these homosexual attractions and tendencies.
{Please excuse me, my homosexual friends, I am merely trying to explain how the young men in his country may be developing a more intense sexual attraction to men specifically because they are not allowed to show or act sexual to women, and that by their own gender split they create more specific sexual male on male desires simply because of the lack of female involvement in daily life. Not to mention their general degradation of anything effeminate, including effeminate men both straight and gay.}
We humans do have tendencies to desire that which we are accustomed to seeing on a daily basis and that which we typically find arousing are those who make us feel loved and secure, with only men around to share this with, it is nature that men would develop this form of attraction exclusively with other men, even stronger than with women as they have had very little experience with women at all in a physical sense, even just holding hands is seen as a weakness, how on earth is a sexual relationship with someone you would not even hold hands with even imaginable…..
if all you are exposed to is men, and women are constantly degraded as mere feminine holes,…. then wouldn’t most men who feel the need to belong follow the same sexual preference, it is only natural to assume that men will act sexually with other men when women are not allowed to be viewed as natural sexually desirable humans.
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What is ‘gay’? In The History of Sexuality, a multivolume work published in the 1970s and ’80s, Michel Foucault proposed his famous thesis that Western academic, medical, and political discourse of the 18th and 19th centuries had produced the idea of the homosexual as a deviant type: In Western society, homosexuality changed from being a behavior (what you do) to an identity (who you are).
In the Middle East, however, homosexual behavior remained just that -- an act, not an orientation. That is not to say that Middle Eastern men who had sex with other men were freely tolerated. But they were not automatically labeled deviant.
The taxonomy revolved around the roles of top and bottom, with little stigma attaching to the top. "‘Sexuality’ is distinguished not between ‘homosexual’ and ‘heterosexual’ but between taking pleasure and submitting to someone (being used for pleasure),"...
A magazine editor in Jeddah told me that many boys in Mecca, where he grew up, have sexual relations with men, but they don’t see themselves as gay. Abubaker Bagader, a human-rights activist based in Jeddah, explained that homosexuality can be viewed as a phase.
"Homosexuality is considered something one might pass by," he said. "It’s to be understood as a stage of life, particularly at youth." This view of sexual behavior, in combination with the strict segregation of the sexes, serves to foster homosexual acts, shifting the stigma onto bottoms and allowing older men to excuse their younger behavior -- their time as bottoms -- as mere youthful transgressions...
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These acts are still considered homosexual acts none the less. Who else are the young men in your country supposed to experiment with, apparently not women, as they are part of the “I’m just a hole” effeminates, as you shroudedly acknowledge to be know as the leaders of the “anti-man” agenda…..because effeminates want…… what do effeminates’ want again, oh that’s right……. they want the “anti-man” agenda, what is it they are supposed to want again, I mean what do you think is truly the “anti-mans” agenda?
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Originally Posted by Natural manhood
So, what is important is that, Pierre feels uncomfortable with the gay identity and the way it constructs sexuality between men. And, he has been trying to bring up more or less the same issues that I've been doing. Except that, he is crippled without a comprehension of the concept of 'third gender.'
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AGAIN…….. “Pierre never according to this account, experienced any psychological crisis in developing a homosexual or gay identity”
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Originally Posted by Natural manhood
THE INABILITY OF WESTERNERS TO COMPREHEND HUMAN GENDER AS SEPARATE FROM HUMAN SEX IDENTITY, MAKES THEM UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE REAL PROBLEM WITH THE CONCEPT OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION, EVEN IF THEY'RE GREATLY DISADVANTAGED BY IT.
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Actually this is precisely your problem, human gender does not define human sexuality, nor does human sexuality define gender. Your either a boy or a girl (dna wise), but who you shag, that doesn’t make you anything except who YOU decide to be. The inability for the East to finally drop the human gender stereotypes altogether is the base of most of the problems you are suffering with.
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Originally Posted by Natural manhood
(a) I'm not creating a third gender based in sexual orientation. I don't even validate sexual orientation. I am vouching for a third gender category without any references to sexual preferences. All feminine gendered males are one gender, regardless of whether they like men, women or other third genders.
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No, apparently you’re not basing third gender by sexual orientation….. you are basing human separation merely on the way somebody APPEARS or ACTS…… so basically, you don’t care about the who, what or why of a mans personality….. if a man acts or appears feminine he is a third gender, period. Talk about stereotypical homophobic mentality and behavior, you would divide males based on whether somebody walks with a swish or not…….. that’s beyond prejudice and just down right ignorant NM.
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Originally Posted by Natural manhood
We only hear about the oppression of women, but women have never had to go through something to this extent. Plus, they have the space to complain profusely about the slightest discomfort.
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I know this response is indulgent but.......... GIVE BIRTH NM, squeeze a flippin' basketball out your butt and then stick it to your nipple and feed it and change its diaper, all the while being viewed as a second class citizen (just barely). Be forced to bend to the will of man because they demand it to be so, and with mans physical strength involved in the beatings that follow for disobedience we women suffer plenty pain, daily in some cases and all to prove what, nothing about ourselves except subservience to men. Lets not forget about the heels, makeup, waxing, shaving, hair and skin regiments, lipo, enhancements, do you think we do this for ourselves. Don't tell me I don't understand oppression to the extent you suffer. This is, after all, a man's world and TRUE men know this and honor women as sisters and mothers and wives.
All we women really want (imo) is to be respected and loved for what we do for our "beloved" men and our "precious" families, because in the end, we give birth to you men too. I want my sons to rule their world, but I want them to share it with the women they love so their children can grow in freedom of thoughts and actions, something it seems that you have missed out on.
NM, define the "anti-man" agenda.