Natural manhood

No offense, but I see that as a clever attempt to bring the entire discussion into the narrow confines of the western ghettoization, and breaking my attempt to liberate the discussion from these confines, and bring it into the world of reality (from the western world of abstracts and mislabels).

Besides, you also keep trying to bring down the entire discussion down to me personally, as if I'm raising all this issue because somehow I'm not comfortable with my sexuality and the rest is just fine -- when I'm actually talking about macro issues here, and there are huge problems with the way things are structured in the society, especially for men. These are issues that affect the entirei straight male population in the world (and by straight I mean straight gendered).

And now about labels. I am against labels that are not based on reality, and are part of politics against men. When labels are used by a society in order control human lives forcing them to go against their nature or in order to misrepresent human traits, then they should better go.

I'm only for the very basic labels. Labels that are rooted in biology. Like one's gender identity. However, even within these more natural labels, the kind of polarization that is seen in western society should be avoided. So, the label 'man' may denote men with a male identity, but it should still have space for male femininity.

Then why do I see gays cribbing about there being not enough masculine guys in the gay community?

Also, what do you think about this article:

Why Can?t You Just Butch Up? Gay Men, Effeminacy, and Our War with Ourselves

(You can google this article on the net. I couldn't post the link).

Excerpts from this article written by a gay for the gays:

Note that the masculine males are psychologically trained to be heterosexual by artificially attaching masculinity with heterosexuality. The effeminate males are under no such pressure, so they happily go on to celebrate their desire for men.

Clarification: Being 'arty' may be seen as being effeminate in the West, but its not 'biologically' necessarily a feminine trait. There's feminine art and there's masculine art.


Because, I'm concerned about 'men' and this is an issue that affects men deeply. Because men have been broken from other men, and 'sexual orientation' is the biggest weapon that the modern society has to do this. Without intimacy between them, without male bonding, the man is isolated and vulnerable. Love between men is as much as a biological reality as is competition between them, and they balance each other out. The West has thrown away love between men in the 'gay' zone outside of mainstream, straight spaces and that leaves men with just cut throat competition amongst themselves. That's pretty unhealthy and harmful for men, who are also, now totally dependant on women for all their needs -- social, emotional, physical ... everything. And thus they become prone to be exploited by women. And prone to being exploited in the society generally. And that is what's happening in the world today.

a. It's not really me who is insisting on the 'gender' box. I would rather have no other identities than the ones that can be seen from the outside -- man and woman. But the reality is that there are several other biological identities, and feminine gendered males are a biological identity separate from 'men.' I would still gladly take them in as 'men' ... except that the feminine gendered males themselves are intent on a different identity.

So, in a society that doesn't really acknowledge their femininity the gays would then shift their focus on 'male desire for male' if that is considered close to having a 'female inner identity.' And for males with not so extreme femininity, who like men, a different identity, that accomodates their femininity, but the label says a less stigmatize thing (male desire for men) works practically the best.

So, in short, its my strong experience that feminine gendered males will always insist on a separate identity from men, and that is why I am insisting on the 'third gender' category. It's not for nothing that even the most original human societies based completely on human nature had this gender identity, as well as most non-Western society still have the 'third gender' identity. It's real. It's biological. It's not fabricated or useless like the 'sexual orientation.'


Masculinity and femininity are qualities that all of us have. Indeed, a native American saying goes, "All men are born with a small vagina and all women are born with a small penis." But, its also as much of a truth that we experience one of them as being our identity. Things are less complicated if I'm a male and my inner-sex (gender) is also strongly male. But when I have an inner sex which is strongly female, then I see myself as a different gender than men. I don't see myself as a man. I see myself as a woman, only my body is not female. You can't put me in the same category as males who have a strong male identity.

There are several people who have rather equal amounts of masculinity and femininity. But, they can usually fit themselves in the 'men's identity if it is not so constrictive about excluding male femininity. Unfortunately, the western men's spaces, though essentially queered (through heterosexualization) demand extreme outward masculine behavior from men, and this forces a number of males who would otherwise fit into the 'men's category, out from it. Especially, if they like men exclusively, because they've an option.