Quote:
Originally Posted by levite
Um.... I think a whole lot of my gay friends, who see themselves as very masculine, and not girly or feminized at all, would object to your notion.
Also, why do you care what other people think about you?
No disrespect intended, but you seem very angry-- much more than a rather abstract and theoretical argument about cultural constructions of gender and sexuality would seem to warrant. I guess the question your post makes me ask is, what's happening in your life?
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Thank you for answering Levite.
I used to be very angry at one time. However, I'm not angry anymore. Not that much. The above post of mine is totally objective and impersonal.
A little background of me: I have been working on the issues of men and manhood for about a decade primarily with mainstream men (straight in Western parlance) in a non-Western society. I've researched men and manhood issues all around the world, and the entire politics of it. Just wanted to share some of it with western people. No, hostility intended to anyone. I am just trying to expose a larger wrong doing against men.
What's going on in my life: I was working on liberating men from the traditional anti-men gender and sexual roles that operate on men in my country, and since men's spaces in my society are very strong, and the solidarity and intimacy between men (and men are not afraid to be even sexual with another man) very strong, men took to my ideas like duck to water. Then came forced westernization of my society, and men were driven to a corner. Just like men in the West are driven to a corner, primarily by feminists and gays. I'm not against women's rights nor against rights of the third genders, however, when they go against men's rights and spaces, that is when it bothers me. Today, men in my society, after years of westernization and heterosexualization, are broken from each other. They won't hold each other's hands anymore (at least in urban, westernized spaces), the anti-man forces have become extremely powerful (they will run you down if you hold hands with your friends). And today, I find it very difficult to organize men or to make them willing to work on their own issues. They are scared and isolated, and indeed too busy trying to fit in. If there is anger, that is where it is.
---------- Post added at 04:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by levite
Um.... I think a whole lot of my gay friends, who see themselves as very masculine, and not girly or feminized at all, would object to your notion.
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Yes, they would. And I've had quite big fights with them on 'gay' discussion forums. However, I don't intended to fight here. (I'm a much changed man, and I'm going to test it here).
Seeing oneself as manly is different from actually having a strong male identity. Those who care for the gay identity, tend to see manliness or masculinity as something very superficial. Something, you can achieve just by pretending or putting on a few acts (and hence the term "straight-acting"). I tried to get in touch with several so-called 'straight-acting' males, and to my surprise I found most of them too feminine from the outset, even on the phone their voice was absolutely feminine. Yet, they insisted that they were very manly. Funny!!
The truth is that someone who has a strong male identity (that is how I define masculinity), will never be comfortable into the essentially third gender gay zone, no matter how the west defines it. Outwardly its defined as 'men who like men' but anyone who deals with the gay community knows instantly that its more about male femininity than about men liking men. That is why the masculine gendered males (whom I called the straight males or the straight gendered males or the straight males who like men) fight, suppress or hide their sexuality for men.
It is also true that in the West, things have been socially engineered to such an extent that male sexuality for men is totally isolated from the men's spaces, and so many masculine gendered males feel left out. They may join the gay zone superficially, but they never really relate with anything that the gay identity or space really stands for. They live there like outsiders, foreigners. Never really enjoying the gay bars or culture or magazines and stuff. They are there only because the western society forced them there. They are like mavericks. Only a rare percentage of masculine gendered males who strongly feel sexual for men, ever care to call themselves gay, in any case.
You cannot deny that the history and biology of the gay identity/ category cries out loud that its actually a queer space, third gender space, a feminine male space, not a space for men to like men.
---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by levite
Also, why do you care what other people think about you?
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You mean you'd be comfortable being known as a different gender than you actually are?
Why shouldn't one be bothered about what other people think about you? We're social animals aren't we? We live in a society, we're interdependant on each other. I do know that westerners live in a society where the distances between individuals have become too wide, personal spaces are too wide, and each person lives individualistic lives, broken from other people. But this kind of life is afforded only by immense wealth. Out where I live, people are more dependant on each other. We live in a closely knit society, where each is dependant on the other. What people think about each other is important.
Actually, the truth is, manhood is the most important issue for men all over the globe and modern west is no exception. Indeed, males have been, since time immemorial, going through hell in order to earn social manhood, with their bodies being mutilated live, they being stung by thousands of venomous bees, and do other painful things which have taken the lives of many, just in order to pass the manhood test. It's easy for the feminists and gays to claim that manhood and manliness are superficial, vain things. But men know how important it is. Unfortunately, the west has thrown out masculinity from its society, and it holds it either as artificially constructed or as a vice. So, there is no real understanding about what it actually is. In fact, even the men themselves don't understand the importance of manhood for men, even when it runs their lives. I guess this ignorance is because, the politics against manhood, in the west, has successfully redefined 'manhood' as 'heterosexuality' and so, manly males in the West are today as keen to be 'heterosexual' as they were in the past to have 'manhood.'
However, its also true that most men in the West itself worry about manhood and what others say about them -- even when its such an individualistic society -- and they hate to be called 'gay.' Break the connection between 'gay' and desiring men, and you'd see how straight males will start to acknowledge their own sexuality for men, without feeling less of a man.
Also, I think, if we personalise this discussion we'd miss out on the very important point I'm trying to make. That sexual orientation serves to seggregate men and is not a healthy thing for men.