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Originally Posted by ratbastid
That's a great example, but not of what you think it's an example of.
Let's consider terms like "punitive", "social engineering", and "wealth redistribution". That you used those terms is very enlightening about YOUR position on tax policy. You then project that onto what people say, and for YOU it seems like what they "really mean" when they're maybe talking about something completely other than that.
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Assuming I understand your point, I am not sure I do, I disagree. The terms I used have clear meanings. For example, there is a component of taxing smoking that is punitive, or having the intent to punish those who smoke and those who profit from smoking. There is also a component of social engineering, those who don't like people to smoke want to discourage smoking. And there is a component of wealth redistribution, for example smokers being taxed for SCHIP (health care for children in low income families). I support taxation of smoking only to the degree that it imposes costs on society. This view is not about me or what I project, it is what it is.
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And it's not "how ace doesn't listen". This is fundamental to our makeup as human beings. We really actually know NOTHING about "reality". The point at which I interface with reality is the exact same point where I interpret my perceptions into meanings. Which means I'm NEVER seeing things as they are, I'm ALWAYS seeing things through a layer of interpretation. And then I interact with those meanings and interpretations as if they are the real and objective truth.
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This is an example of doublespeak in my opinion. What is real is pretty clear, it easy to define and easy to understand. it takes effort to convolute truth.
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Look at the object nearest you. Notice that RIGHT THERE IN THE LOOKING AT IT, you know what it is, its name, what it's used for. That's one aspect the layer of interpretation I'm talking about. It's not just what it is--a lump of something with the properties that make it real (it exists in space and time, and has a shape). No, to you it's (in my case) a "wallet". Well, it's not, really. That's the name we give that thing.
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There are certain "things" in the universe subject to illusion, "looking at" stuff may be one of them, on the other hand there are certain "things" in the universe that are not subject to illusion, i.e., 1+1=2. Perceptions of the severity of a recession is subjective, but the calculated economic indicators used to measure economic activity are not. For example, Obama only talks subjectively about the economy unless a data point supports his political cause at the time he says it, people who actually take the time to look at data points are not fooled by subjective commentary. There is a known and objective reality.
---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------
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Originally Posted by rahl
Don't you mean Bush's bailout plan?
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Bush presented a plan to bailout Wall St., which was passed after modification and was paid back with a profit to the treasury, Obama presented and implemented a plan to save us from the brink of the worst economic disaster in the history of mankind. I was talking about Obama's over the top rhetoric and his failed plan. So, perhaps I am not clear on when Obama actually takes ownership, all I know is that things really dived after his election.
---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------
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Originally Posted by roachboy
huh..the largely neo-liberal imf thinks ace is wrong. how about that?
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Wrong about what? You link to a 216 page report, say I am wrong, but provide nothing specific???? What am I to respond to? Perhaps your first step would have been to ask me to define my terms, to provide yourself with a better understanding before making a declarative conclusion on me being wrong. Hence the point of the OP, "fundamentally strong" is a vague subjective concept, but the data points supporting or disputing that concept are not. In this case you did not take the time to understand.
---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------
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Originally Posted by pan6467
I think we're in for a deeper recession simply because Obama didn't focus on jobs. Wages are still falling like a rock, I have friends who do graphic design and are losing jobs because India is outbidding them for pennies on the dollar.
As we adjust so will the rest of the world, I am a firm believer we are in an economic war and those fighting us knows this is the only way to bring us down. We lower wages to compete, they lower wages also. We lower standards, they lower standards. Etc.
The problem with this is we have a president that is a blithering idiot. He didn't focus on anything that will last in this economic stimulus. He spent far more than the government will ever take in, thus raising taxes. And they will do it in ways to hide them, more on businesses and in areas where costs will go up but we "won't notice".
Wages are decreasing school tuitions are increasing.... thus people will be forever paying back student loans.
Wages decreasing means a lower tax base that has to pay a higher bill. This means taxes have no choice but to be increased one way or another.
Greed of the wealthy continues (CEOs still wanting more pay while their workers get less, colleges increasing tuition while paying their presidents more, and so on), while the workers are barely making a living... the class gap widens and worsens.
Regulating the finance district maybe needed but we have allowed it to become so powerful we may not be able to control it without destroying the whole economy.
I see the economy doing more of a little y in that it will go up, but because of government idiocy and not creating permanency in this so called "stimulus" we'll see the economy rise (as we are) but peak fast and fall even further with an extremely low bottom. With the feel of the land and the partisan hatred and people not wanting to lose what they have, there will be a point of revolt.
This may sound radical and ya all can argue all you want and come up with all kinds of arguments it won't happen, but I think there is no way to stop it now and I believe it will happen within the next year.
There are only 2 things that can stop this: increasing tariffs on imports (which will never happen) OR some national disaster (man made terroristic act or natural) either of which would only be a temporary pause to an economy that is doomed.
When you allow the class gaps to get so wide, government worries about foreign relations more than their citizens carbon taxes, very low tariffs, etc...), mass government corruption and spending where there is no realistic way of EVER paying it back lowering the standards of living (and having a certain percentage almost eager to allow it and make excuses why it is ok), and so on.... there's no stopping it and I truly believe there are those in government that want this to happen for power and personal gain.
But call me nutty... pick out one little period placed wrong and argue about that so we don't have to focus on ALL I said to state my argument and belief.
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Obama is a walking, talking blob of contradictions. I have no idea of what he is really trying to do or accomplish, so we get billion dollar Wall St bailouts, while Main St. pays the price. We get credit reform that allows banks to raise rates and cut off credit when people need lower rates and new credit at the worst time, we get health care reform that primarily benefits health care insurance companies. We get high unemployment while big corporation posts profit blowing expectations out of the water. I don't get it.