Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Believers and non-believers

levite · 12-13-2009, 06:36 PM

Dialogue to what end?

If what you're asking is, "Can religious folks and atheists ever hold a discussion in which both parties agree to judge their beliefs in light of a single common paradigm?" Then the answer is, IMO, no. Religion and Reason operate in two different paradigms, and they are designed to operate differently, because they exist for different reasons. In my experience, the only ones who don't accept this notion are fundamentalists-- either the religious variety or the atheist variety.

Religion will never be proven by logic and science because it is not about logic and science: it is about faith and hope and morality and ethics and spirituality and community and so forth-- stuff that has nothing to do with logic and science. Likewise, Reason cannot be judged, measured, competed with, or replaced by religion, because science is the tool our civilization uses to analyze the physical universe and the physical phenomena therein, and within the parameters of its inquiries, no other set of tools will ever consistently provide accurate answers.

In other words, as I have said elsewhere, you don't open a physics textbook to learn how to feel closer to the Creator, or how to judge moral issues, or to find guidelines for ethical behavior. And by the same token, you don't open the Bible to find answers relating to geology, cosmology, world history, or archaeology. Either case is a case of grievously misunderstanding what those texts are and are not designed to provide.

If what you're asking is, "Can religious folks and atheists share calm and polite discussion concerning why each believes what they believe, and what caused them to come to those conclusions, and how they feel about it?" Then the answer, IMO, is yes, although unfortunately, rarely.

If such a dialogue is entered into by non-fundamentalists, who are not trying to dissuade the other party from their respective points of view, but are simply interested in understanding the other, and being able to live together in peace, that can be a successful dialogue that bears fruit. Unfortunately, such dialogues seem nearly never to be entered into save by fundamentalists, who not only annoy the opposing party with their closed-mindedness, but all too frequently represent the absolute worst elements of their respective fields of origin. In my experience, I have run into far too many of these kinds of dialogues where the religious side is represented by the most intractable, bible-thumping, ignorant, literalist, intolerant yokels imaginable, who absolutely pervert the Biblical texts and the teachings of their religion in their attempt to argue their fundamentalism; and the side of Reason is represented by scientists who claim they are open-minded to all things-- provided any phenomena outside their experience helpfully cooperate by appearing consistently in someone's laboratory in order to be measured and gauged, and presuming that any phenomena in the universe we have not yet proven scientifically must surely be measurable and quantifiable by our current technologies-- and who claim that their opposition to religion stems from their desire to promote tolerance and peace in the world between all people-- except, apparently, themselves and those who believe in God.

Dialogue is possible, though: if done in a mutually respectful way, in order to enhance existence in a pluralistic society. I have seen it. Participated in it. So far it seems to be rare, but that's probably to be expected in a society overrun by fundamentalist leanings.

12-13-2009, 06:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	Dialogue to what end? If what you're asking is, "Can religious folks and atheists ever hold a discussion in which both parties agree to judge their beliefs in light of a single common paradigm?" Then the answer is, IMO, no. Religion and Reason operate in two different paradigms, and they are designed to operate differently, because they exist for different reasons. In my experience, the only ones who don't accept this notion are fundamentalists-- either the religious variety or the atheist variety. Religion will never be proven by logic and science because it is not about logic and science: it is about faith and hope and morality and ethics and spirituality and community and so forth-- stuff that has nothing to do with logic and science. Likewise, Reason cannot be judged, measured, competed with, or replaced by religion, because science is the tool our civilization uses to analyze the physical universe and the physical phenomena therein, and within the parameters of its inquiries, no other set of tools will ever consistently provide accurate answers. In other words, as I have said elsewhere, you don't open a physics textbook to learn how to feel closer to the Creator, or how to judge moral issues, or to find guidelines for ethical behavior. And by the same token, you don't open the Bible to find answers relating to geology, cosmology, world history, or archaeology. Either case is a case of grievously misunderstanding what those texts are and are not designed to provide. If what you're asking is, "Can religious folks and atheists share calm and polite discussion concerning why each believes what they believe, and what caused them to come to those conclusions, and how they feel about it?" Then the answer, IMO, is yes, although unfortunately, rarely. If such a dialogue is entered into by non-fundamentalists, who are not trying to dissuade the other party from their respective points of view, but are simply interested in understanding the other, and being able to live together in peace, that can be a successful dialogue that bears fruit. Unfortunately, such dialogues seem nearly never to be entered into save by fundamentalists, who not only annoy the opposing party with their closed-mindedness, but all too frequently represent the absolute worst elements of their respective fields of origin. In my experience, I have run into far too many of these kinds of dialogues where the religious side is represented by the most intractable, bible-thumping, ignorant, literalist, intolerant yokels imaginable, who absolutely pervert the Biblical texts and the teachings of their religion in their attempt to argue their fundamentalism; and the side of Reason is represented by scientists who claim they are open-minded to all things-- provided any phenomena outside their experience helpfully cooperate by appearing consistently in someone's laboratory in order to be measured and gauged, and presuming that any phenomena in the universe we have not yet proven scientifically must surely be measurable and quantifiable by our current technologies-- and who claim that their opposition to religion stems from their desire to promote tolerance and peace in the world between all people-- except, apparently, themselves and those who believe in God. Dialogue is possible, though: if done in a mutually respectful way, in order to enhance existence in a pluralistic society. I have seen it. Participated in it. So far it seems to be rare, but that's probably to be expected in a society overrun by fundamentalist leanings. __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)