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Jinn · 09-10-2009, 08:31 AM

I have to go with filtherton on this one, too.

As much as I'd like to brand your and my scientific-reasoned empiricism and skepticism as atheism, that would be going too far. As Seaver unfortunately demonstrated, the fallacy of associating scientific explanations of the universe (the Big Bang, singularity, et. al) with atheism is a dangerous one. By conflating the two, Theists believe they can call atheism a religion and thereby erode the credibility of atheism by implying hypocrisy. I am atheist, and that is separate from my rational belief in science as the most effective way of gaining important knowledge about our Universe and how it works. I do not believe in the crazy man-in-the-sky stories of Jesus or Mohammad because I find the evidence for those stories to be lacking. I am an Atheist because of the flaws in their positions, not because I accept the Big Bang as a plausible current explanation of the creation of the Universe. It's a common comparison, too, because theology is often inseparable from morality, philosophy, reason or action for many devout individuals. In the world of Atheism, which clearly has no guiding individual, force, or books, one can be atheistic to Jesus' existence or his presence as our Savior, but have entirely different moral systems, scientific understandings, behaviors and actions from other Atheists. Because they are separated, one cannot reasonably argue that atheism is a religion, as Seaver so ineptly tried to. The obvious counterpoint is that there are a number (a majority, actually) of theists who ALSO believe the Big Bang to be an effective (current) explanation for universal creation.

And there are plenty of atheists who are indeed godless for non-scientific or non-rational reasons, or simply because of a bad experience.

Atheism is just a lack of belief in gods or God. Issues of morality, knowledge acquisition, or even philosophy are separate entities entirely.

I really enjoyed your thoughts Halx, though I can't be certain it's not just a "preaching to the choir" instance. I was long convinced of your points before you posited them.

---------- Post added at 10:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

EDIT: Just bought

Amazon.com: Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions

. I was looking for another book to read through after finishing the last set.

Halx: I highly recommend ALL of Michael Shermer's books (the head of the Skeptics Society), especially

Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time

. If you haven't read it already, I'm sure you'd love it.

09-10-2009, 08:31 AM	#13 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I have to go with filtherton on this one, too. As much as I'd like to brand your and my scientific-reasoned empiricism and skepticism as atheism, that would be going too far. As Seaver unfortunately demonstrated, the fallacy of associating scientific explanations of the universe (the Big Bang, singularity, et. al) with atheism is a dangerous one. By conflating the two, Theists believe they can call atheism a religion and thereby erode the credibility of atheism by implying hypocrisy. I am atheist, and that is separate from my rational belief in science as the most effective way of gaining important knowledge about our Universe and how it works. I do not believe in the crazy man-in-the-sky stories of Jesus or Mohammad because I find the evidence for those stories to be lacking. I am an Atheist because of the flaws in their positions, not because I accept the Big Bang as a plausible current explanation of the creation of the Universe. It's a common comparison, too, because theology is often inseparable from morality, philosophy, reason or action for many devout individuals. In the world of Atheism, which clearly has no guiding individual, force, or books, one can be atheistic to Jesus' existence or his presence as our Savior, but have entirely different moral systems, scientific understandings, behaviors and actions from other Atheists. Because they are separated, one cannot reasonably argue that atheism is a religion, as Seaver so ineptly tried to. The obvious counterpoint is that there are a number (a majority, actually) of theists who ALSO believe the Big Bang to be an effective (current) explanation for universal creation. And there are plenty of atheists who are indeed godless for non-scientific or non-rational reasons, or simply because of a bad experience. Atheism is just a lack of belief in gods or God. Issues of morality, knowledge acquisition, or even philosophy are separate entities entirely. I really enjoyed your thoughts Halx, though I can't be certain it's not just a "preaching to the choir" instance. I was long convinced of your points before you posited them. ---------- Post added at 10:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ---------- EDIT: Just bought Amazon.com: Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions Amazon.com: Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions . I was looking for another book to read through after finishing the last set. Halx: I highly recommend ALL of Michael Shermer's books (the head of the Skeptics Society), especially Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time . If you haven't read it already, I'm sure you'd love it. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 09-10-2009 at 08:33 AM..