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roachboy · 07-07-2009, 08:05 AM

interesting. i know alot more about anarchism than about libertarianism, truth be told. i've always found anarchism (which has many variants that array along the question of self-organization and how it is to operate, really) more compelling an oppositional viewpoint than libertarian positions, mostly because i see very little in the latter that goes beyond a desire to take absolutely literally the notion of the economic subject in "classical" political economy. the assumption of infrastructure and rule-sets particular to capitalism as background conditions cedes all questions of power or control or hierarchy a priori. anarchism doesn't: these are central concerns (again, speaking in general about a space that is differentiated...so not the haircut anarchists, not the black block or other direct action types, really). libertarianism has nothing to say about social hierarchy, so tends to default into some idea that such hierarchies are natural (one way or another)...so there's no possibility for thinking critically about the idea(s) of social hierarchy from that viewpoint: as far as you can go is to oppose an "artificial" to "natural" form and link the former to the state or whatever other bureaucratic apparatus that in principle as libertarian you oppose which in fact you presuppose it's functionality--you just don't like having to look at it alot and wish that it would be like a good dog and stay invisible so you can pretend you're in some state of nature.

but the biggest problem is not so much the spaces for thinking that libertarian modes of politics lead you to (and my background pushes me to see political positions as types of conceptual devices that enable you to see or not see phenomena in the world as political, think through them, maybe consider alternatives and what they'd look like) is the relation to capitalism. libertarian modes of thinking are products of capitalism--they are reflections of it, a kind of loyal opposition within it that (again) turn the notions abstracted from classical political economy against whatever contemporary aspects of the form (capitalism) they don't like. to my mind, this is little more than holding up a mirror. it repeats the logic it opposes wholesale.

but that's just my opinion, man.

07-07-2009, 08:05 AM	#84 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	interesting. i know alot more about anarchism than about libertarianism, truth be told. i've always found anarchism (which has many variants that array along the question of self-organization and how it is to operate, really) more compelling an oppositional viewpoint than libertarian positions, mostly because i see very little in the latter that goes beyond a desire to take absolutely literally the notion of the economic subject in "classical" political economy. the assumption of infrastructure and rule-sets particular to capitalism as background conditions cedes all questions of power or control or hierarchy a priori. anarchism doesn't: these are central concerns (again, speaking in general about a space that is differentiated...so not the haircut anarchists, not the black block or other direct action types, really). libertarianism has nothing to say about social hierarchy, so tends to default into some idea that such hierarchies are natural (one way or another)...so there's no possibility for thinking critically about the idea(s) of social hierarchy from that viewpoint: as far as you can go is to oppose an "artificial" to "natural" form and link the former to the state or whatever other bureaucratic apparatus that in principle as libertarian you oppose which in fact you presuppose it's functionality--you just don't like having to look at it alot and wish that it would be like a good dog and stay invisible so you can pretend you're in some state of nature. but the biggest problem is not so much the spaces for thinking that libertarian modes of politics lead you to (and my background pushes me to see political positions as types of conceptual devices that enable you to see or not see phenomena in the world as political, think through them, maybe consider alternatives and what they'd look like) is the relation to capitalism. libertarian modes of thinking are products of capitalism--they are reflections of it, a kind of loyal opposition within it that (again) turn the notions abstracted from classical political economy against whatever contemporary aspects of the form (capitalism) they don't like. to my mind, this is little more than holding up a mirror. it repeats the logic it opposes wholesale. but that's just my opinion, man. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite