Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbastid
And THAT, my friends, is why Pub Discussion fails.
"Torture" is actually a defined term, per a UN Convention that the US is a signatory on. But I can't cite it given the parameters of this thread.
Short version: YOU DON'T GET TO SAY WHAT IS AND ISN'T TORTURE.
|
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but those
are the parameters defined by the U.N.
...And I've really got to start using the sarcasm tags, as it's hard to convey over the internet (Apparently).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
This logic is torture.
The problem with those who say it isn't torture is that they don't understand what it means by "cruel and unusual punishment." We don't waterboard children to get them to tell us who stole the cookie from the cookie jar. We don't waterboard priests until they confess they've diddled children. We don't waterboard white collar criminals to make them confess to the extent of their insider trading.
Why don't we?
Waterboarding is unconstitutional if not illegal; it's immoral if not unbecoming of a state that is supposed to uphold ideals of democracy and freedom and justice.
|
Well, first of all, waterboarding isn't unconstitutional nor illegal (In the U.S.). You might want it to be, but it isn't and referencing them as such doesn't do much to help your argument. But, moving on. The reason we waterboard suspected terrorists is because they're suspected terrorists who don't operate under the guidelines set forth by the Geneva Convention. They frequently target civilians, behead PoW's or journalists and have publicly stated that they won't stop until the opposing side is wiped out. We don't waterboard children because they're crimes don't necessitate being waterboarded. The same with priests or white collar criminals. Hell, we wouldn't even torture normal PoW's who were organized under a common banner.
I don't care how callous of a sentiment you think it is, but if they're not going to "play nice", then neither should we. To make use of a popular idiom, "All's fair in love and war".
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by roachboy
i say the sky is green.
it doesn't matter what you say.
it doesn't matter what the social conventions are that distinguish one color from another.
it doesn't matter what agreements there are that identify color.
i say it's green.
so there.
|
Can no one pick up sarcasm anymore?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Willravel
What wouldn't? Trying, convicting (based on the evidence), and then, after they've been legally incarcerated, questioning them using legal and proven techniques of questioning... that wouldn't be torture, and it's the smart way to go because we don't embolden our "enemies" by giving them an incredibly powerful recruiting tool.
What do you suppose happens if the detainees come back home and say, "They treated me with respect, they tried me on the evidence, and I was found innocent and allowed to come back to my family"? Do you think that would make them hate us more or maybe rethink their position on the evil Americans?
|
I'm not that naive. Our enemies don't
need a new recruiting tool. They have 30/40/50 years worth of it. If you want to believe that a suspected terrorist released back to their country of origin would suddenly lose their anger and hatred towards the U.S., then that's your right to do so. But just because you believe it, doesn't make it so. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of detainees released by the U.S. went right back and joined a terrorist cell, and that they would do so regardless of the way they were treated whilst detained.
And through all of this, no one answered my questions so I'll ask again:
Quote:
|
Someone please tell me what the difference between forcing someone to live in solitary confinement in a completely dark room for days/weeks at a time and waterboarding is? Someone please tell me what wouldn't constitute torture?
|