Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
pan---you act all shocked and outraged that there is a class structure and that this class structure has consequences. you act as though this represents some kind of Problem for the american political system. fact is that the system is built around the class structure. i just don't think you have a terribly coherent idea of what that means.
since you've taken to quoting one of my favorite american fascists, henry ford (you know, ole hank, the guy who sponsored the translation of the protocols of the elders of zion and who broke with hitler in the early 1930s because he wasn't anti-semetic enough; ole hank, the guy responsible for a sustained war on labor unions culminating in the lovely river rouge battles of the 1940s; ole hank, the guy who also decided to rationalize american folk music and dance because it offended his fascist sense of nation that there were multiple traditions...good old henry ford...a jonas brother amongst intellectuals), i'll offer you in return a little nugget from marx:
Marx, German Ideology (1845)
so let's say for a second that this is close to accurate in principle. that would mean that your entire "politics" of revolution really is nothing but a snippy inversion of the dominant ideology.
you are a product of a system of social reproduction; you repeat the ways of thinking that underpin the worldview that you think you oppose in the ways in which you oppose it. this leaves you no alternative but to imagine that the problem is that there's been some sort of Betrayal of the Amurican Way by one or another collection of Bad People---recently you've been trying to argue that these Bad People are somehow affiliated with the obama administration, which explains your foray into the tea party farce. whatever, it doesn't matter. you are stuck juxtaposing some imaginary "Real American Political System" with some equally vague existing arrangement, opposing the latter in the name of the former and then proceeding to talk about taking up arms in some kind of equally imaginary revolutionary movement.
you're a gun and a uniform fetish away from militia world, pan.
and what you take for revolution would be-----at the very best-----a kind of beerhall putsch.
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Because I like some quotes from a man does not mean I like the man. Henry Ford's actions were not great. Some things he said were. 2 totally different things. The quotes I used above, to me are very good quotes from a man who built a very profitable business. His actions towards his workers were in no way supportive of the quotes but that does not give any less strength to what was said, just that the man saying them did not follow through on his own beliefs.
Trust me I know my American history. But again, believe what ever you want about me. This quote and the previous one you had to me sound more like you are trying to read deeper than what there is or perhaps not seeing what I have written.
As far as taking arms against anyone, unless my freedom is at stake, I seriously doubt that my beliefs would ever become popular enough for many to take arms for.
What I am seeing from you and others are excuses for the fucked up system and how you truly think about the average person and that disgusts me. But that is your right. But enjoying your right to believe whatever you choose to do not belittle, berate or try to show your belief is better than mine. Beliefs/opinions are like assholes... we all have them and they all smell.
It is when I am not allowed to express my beliefs freely, to not share/debate my beliefs and trade ideas, that I will take arms.... against those oppressing my ideas or against myself. Because the freedom to have, share and express my ideas, not just politically but in religion, art, life in general is to me my most important right as a human and would be the one I would fight to the death for.
---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Pan, you should have at least quoted Peter Drucker, who knew better than Ford: management isn't about production, price, and profit exclusively:
"[CEO compensation more than 20 times what the rank and file make—especially at companies where thousands of employees are being laid off]—is morally and socially unforgivable, and we will pay a heavy price for it.”
"[The concept of profit maximization] is a major cause of the misunderstanding of the nature of profit in our society and of the deep-seated hostility to profit, which are among the most dangerous diseases of an industrial society."
"To know what a business is, we have to start with its purpose. Its purpose must lie outside of the business itself. In fact, it must lie in society since business enterprise is an organ of society. There is only one valid definition of business purpose: to create a customer." The problem isn't with business. The problem is with poorly managed businesses.
You can't fix this with guns. |
I extremely agree with Drucker's quote above.
I agree with business and privately owned business there isn't true problems. It is when the people running those businesses feel they have the right to rape and pillage the company and workers that the problem begins.
Again, just because I have quotes from Ford does in no way mean I am a believer in his actions. I am a believer in the quotes above and that perhaps instead of lip service perhaps Ford should have lived by his own words.
No, you can't fix this with guns, only by opening minds expressing ideas on how to find better solutions and developing then following that plan making adjustments as needed if something doesn't work or you find a better way. It's finding compromise so that we all can move forward and live in the prosperity each person has the ability and freedom to make for themselves.
Without compromise and finding middle ground the country, the people and the whole human race may as well go back to carrying clubs and living in fucking caves. It is compromise and working together for common goals that got us to the moon, that beat Hitler, that built this nation to be the once greatest nation ever seen.
It was only when compromise and finding middle ground, failed to work because sides saw those as weaknesses that we began to fail.