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Originally Posted by pai mei
Wait, so you believe in "Arbeit macht frei" ? You think people need to be put to work ?
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Very bad analogy. Half my family was murdered by the people that made up that line... So no, I don't believe in a nazi mantra.
That said: No, I don't think that people need to be put to work. I think people need to work period. There has never been a society where ordinary people could just sit back and do nothing all day. There's a reason for that, and it's not money. It's called nature.
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Originally Posted by pai mei
I feel like I'm talking to some wall here. Please all read some books by Daniel Quinn. There was a world before agriculture and before money. Look at the Arawak indians. Look at the North American indians. Of course there is nothing to see, we killed them all they were savages, not like us...
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I didn't kill anyone. Besides, the murder of Arawak indians has nothing to do with this subject at all.
Before agriculture and money, humans were hunter-gatherers. They had to work bloody hard to survive at all. They didn't have time to sit around doing nothing.
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Originally Posted by pai mei
You say that if people are not rewarded there will be no progress ? People who work for progress like Einstein for example need no reward. Their work is their reward and I am sure they don't even see it as work, when you do what you like it' not work.
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I enjoy my work, but I expect to be paid to do it. Not because I'm a slave, not because I'm greedy, but because I work to live. I like some extra money to buy extra luxury. Something I wouldn't be able to do in your "perfect" system. In your system, I'd probably do the same nice work, but would live in a shithole without anything to do in my ample free time. Gee, doesn't that sound nice.
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Originally Posted by pai mei
What you mean is "if people are not forced to fit and maintain this system there will be no progress". That is not progress for me. There's all this talk, all this philosophy about not caring about material things, but you think people need "rewards like money and status" to progress ? People who need those things are weak people and there is no progress in following them. Look at all the geniuses and whatever - did they require money and "status" ? They were far beyond those, even if other gave those things to them I am sure that was not the motivation.
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No, what I mean is that there will be less (!) progress in your system, because people won't have any incentive to improve their lives. There aren't many people that would work for free; the few that would won't be able to do enough to make a difference.
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Originally Posted by pai mei
In my system people would be really free. Imagine you wake up and know you have nothing to do and will never have. You improve your home, improve your street, then you gather with others and say "let's do this", and start building a monument to last for many centuries, not because you are forced or rewarded, just because you have nothing to do, and you like it. Your result is your reward. Like children do when they play, of course adults say "a just children, they do nothing", and in fact they are real creators.
Anybody does what he likes. You are interested in science, gather together with others and do research. You do it because you like it and want to make life for everybody better. Look at the art work of the American Indians. I am sure nobody forced or paid them for it. They did it, they had more "free time" then we the "Advanced" have today. All their time was "free" and they did not "work" or "not work" they just lived.
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If I woke up knowing I have nothing to do for the rest of my life, I wouldn't do jack shit. I know from personal experience (unemployement) that I need a goal to keep me going.
With nothing to do and no hope of ever getting a better life, I certainly wouldn't improve my home or my street or do anything else. Why bother? Why would I improve the lives of the people around me, if they can't be bother to do it themselves?
Perhaps that makes me "weak" in your eyes, but I'm not that different from the rest of the human race. I certainly don't think I'm weak, and you probably wouldn't think that either if you knew me.
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Originally Posted by pai mei
The lack of money and the free food and housing means - no crazy glory seeking madman will ever rise. He will have no means to lure or to threaten others to work for his plan. If some people gather and do a thing they will do it out of their own will, quitting anytime they want, and never able to impose their will on others.
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There were many glory seeking "madmen" around before money was ever an issue. A madman can gather friends who want glory just like him. Money isn't the only thing that people want; one could easily imagine the madmen promising his followers all the women (=sex) they want. Back in the olde (pre-money) days, this worked wonders. Hell, some people would help him just because that would allow them to use force to control other people. That's not unlikely, given our human nature. Or they want to steal the luxury stuff their (not-so-lazy) neighbor made.
With some friends, the madman could start to enforce his will on the rest of the lazy bastards out there. He could then take control of the food supply, and force the rest of the people to do his bidding. How would you prevent such a scenario? Do you really expect all the people to be nice all the time?