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Slims · 12-29-2008, 04:42 PM

No worries.

I can relate to your point of view far more now that you have explained it in those terms.

What I don't see being possible is an incorporation of Palestine into Israel with full citizenship status. I think that would be disastrous for the Jews in Israel as it would make them a minority in their own country, and Muslim countries don't have a very good track record for tolerance of 'zionists.' I think for Israel to fully incorporate Palestine would mean complete and total capitulation to those who are trying to hurt it.

Likewise, I don't think Israel should control Palestine indefinitely. I am not morally opposed to Israeli occupation since those areas did pick a fight and lost the war, but I don't think it is in Israel's best interest to continue to hold onto a ticking bomb.

I agree that Israels tactics in Palestine have been, at times, appalling. However, I believe these were mostly attempts to subdue what the Israelis perceived as rogue peoples bent on the destruction of Israel. And, regardless of the past, Israel is forward looking enough to want to get rid of responsibility for Palestine as soon as possible. The main problem is that whenever they look away, the Palestinians take advantage of the situation and attack Israel.

For instance, the 'embargo' has been more or less successful at ceasing suicide bombings in Israel. Hamas will argue that they 'voluntarily' stopped using suicide bombers, but the reality is that it became impractical to smuggle them across the border.

It has completely failed it's other two objectives: Stop rocket attacks, and bring Hamas to it's knees in order to force negotiations of a truce of some kind.

The disparity of force employed by Israel is not lost on me, though I believe bomb for bomb the Palestinians are still ahead numbers wise. The Israelis are just more capable.

Like the embargo, the current Israeli campaign is two fold: Blow up Hamas fighters, rockets, tunnels, etc. And more importantly, force Hamas to negotiate a truce.

Israel has already tried the carrot, and now, unfortunately for the Palestinians, they are trying the stick. I don't agree with the scope of their attacks; however, I feel they are taking extraordinary measures to hit military targets. Unfortunately those targets are deliberately placed in population centers and it is an absolute miracle so few women and children have been killed in the attacks. Last I heard, there were about 300 dead, and only about 60 women and children.

Israel believes it can so weaken Hamas it may collapse. And here is where I think our opinions really diverge: Israel (and I, to a degree), believe that with enough force, they can compel Hamas to come to terms. I think you feel it will only enrage Hamas further and serve to strengthen them.

What I believe is lost here is that I don't think anybody is suggesting Israel's attacks are going to result in a lasting peace. Rather, they are trying to force Hamas to make some concessions in the interest of self preservation; which could then be used months or years down the line as a starting point for real peace negotiations. Also, Israel is trying to regain some of the 'face' it lost during it's war against Hezbollah. Again, it is unfortunate the Palestinians are bearing the brunt of it, but Israel needs to re-solidify it's image as a military power in the eyes of it's other neighbors or they will continue to pick away at it.

From what I understand you believe this will backfire horribly, and I agree it is a real possibility. They may accomplish their short term goals, but do far more harm than good in the long run. (i.e. Hezbollah)

12-29-2008, 04:42 PM	#54 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	No worries. I can relate to your point of view far more now that you have explained it in those terms. What I don't see being possible is an incorporation of Palestine into Israel with full citizenship status. I think that would be disastrous for the Jews in Israel as it would make them a minority in their own country, and Muslim countries don't have a very good track record for tolerance of 'zionists.' I think for Israel to fully incorporate Palestine would mean complete and total capitulation to those who are trying to hurt it. Likewise, I don't think Israel should control Palestine indefinitely. I am not morally opposed to Israeli occupation since those areas did pick a fight and lost the war, but I don't think it is in Israel's best interest to continue to hold onto a ticking bomb. I agree that Israels tactics in Palestine have been, at times, appalling. However, I believe these were mostly attempts to subdue what the Israelis perceived as rogue peoples bent on the destruction of Israel. And, regardless of the past, Israel is forward looking enough to want to get rid of responsibility for Palestine as soon as possible. The main problem is that whenever they look away, the Palestinians take advantage of the situation and attack Israel. For instance, the 'embargo' has been more or less successful at ceasing suicide bombings in Israel. Hamas will argue that they 'voluntarily' stopped using suicide bombers, but the reality is that it became impractical to smuggle them across the border. It has completely failed it's other two objectives: Stop rocket attacks, and bring Hamas to it's knees in order to force negotiations of a truce of some kind. The disparity of force employed by Israel is not lost on me, though I believe bomb for bomb the Palestinians are still ahead numbers wise. The Israelis are just more capable. Like the embargo, the current Israeli campaign is two fold: Blow up Hamas fighters, rockets, tunnels, etc. And more importantly, force Hamas to negotiate a truce. Israel has already tried the carrot, and now, unfortunately for the Palestinians, they are trying the stick. I don't agree with the scope of their attacks; however, I feel they are taking extraordinary measures to hit military targets. Unfortunately those targets are deliberately placed in population centers and it is an absolute miracle so few women and children have been killed in the attacks. Last I heard, there were about 300 dead, and only about 60 women and children. Israel believes it can so weaken Hamas it may collapse. And here is where I think our opinions really diverge: Israel (and I, to a degree), believe that with enough force, they can compel Hamas to come to terms. I think you feel it will only enrage Hamas further and serve to strengthen them. What I believe is lost here is that I don't think anybody is suggesting Israel's attacks are going to result in a lasting peace. Rather, they are trying to force Hamas to make some concessions in the interest of self preservation; which could then be used months or years down the line as a starting point for real peace negotiations. Also, Israel is trying to regain some of the 'face' it lost during it's war against Hezbollah. Again, it is unfortunate the Palestinians are bearing the brunt of it, but Israel needs to re-solidify it's image as a military power in the eyes of it's other neighbors or they will continue to pick away at it. From what I understand you believe this will backfire horribly, and I agree it is a real possibility. They may accomplish their short term goals, but do far more harm than good in the long run. (i.e. Hezbollah) __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence Last edited by Slims; 12-29-2008 at 04:53 PM..