Slims

Ok, perhaps I missed what you were getting at.

To address your points: my quotes came from the Hamas Charter, which is a modern document written in 1988, well past your 1967 cutoff.

I am also not concerned about who, in the distant past, may have instigated the conflict.

Israel is only laying siege to Gaza in the sense that everytime they open their borders to Gaza, Palestinians blow themselves up in Israel, so they have restricted them. Shortly before this current air campaign, Israel did start to reopen it's border crossings into Gaza but were thanked with continued rocket and mortar attacks.

Second, Gaza has a lot of coastline, and it is by no means completely surrounded by Israel and they are not under a 'Blockade'


I get tired of these discussions because it seems to be a classic case of a little guy picking on a bigger guy until he gets pissed off and kicks the crap out of the little guy. Of course, then the big guy gets in trouble.

Israel, IMHO, has every right to do what they have been doing. The Palestinians are deliberately agitating, and have made absolutely no attempt to police their own people. If Gaza went quiet, and there were no more attacks, rockets, suicide bombers, bulldozers driving over Israelis, etc. how long do you think it would take before Israel opened it's borders? Instead, every time Israel tries to back off, something else happens and Hamas refuses to even attempt to prevent future attacks. It would be a lot easier for Israel to tolerate the occasional attack if Hamas was actively pursuing those who conduct those attacks.


Gaza is basically under self rule (because Israel agreed to let the Palestinians Self-Govern in a peace attempt) and is thus basically autonomous. Israel has no obligation to support Palestine, and it is in no way a human rights violation to simply remove what support was being offered and wall itself off from the people who are trying to destroy Israel.


How am I delusional? I am far from perfectly informed, but I try to put forward reasoned opinions. If you explain where I went wrong in this post I will listen.
-----Added 28/12/2008 at 12 : 41 : 38-----
I also agree with your statement that Gaza is only trouble for Israel, both physically and politically.

What would happen if Israel let the Palestinians form their own state? Wouldn't those attacks then be an act of war between two nations? If Palestine wants to become it's own state, they need to start taking responsibility for both the well being of their people, and attacks launched against Israel from within Palestine.

With Hamas' current, continued refusal to recognize the right of Jews to life, or the right of Israel to exist, where could Israel even begin to negotiate? How can Hamas make a deal with a state they dont' recognize, regardless of how many concessions Israel makes? If you remove the Carrot as a negotiating tool, you are only going to get the stick.
-----Added 28/12/2008 at 12 : 58 : 29-----
I just reread your last post, and I apologize for missing your mention of the link to Electronic Intifada.

Did you really, seriously, say that I was delusional because I get my talking points from the mainstream media and then suggest that I read an activist website in order to get an accurate picture of things?

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence