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Slims · 10-23-2008, 06:33 PM

I wasn't speaking about the average person, but about people who are competent with whatever weapon they choose. Somone who spends a lot of time behind a gun will be much quicker than your average joe or police officer.

I can guarantee that I will be able to shoot you several times before you close the distance. However, I will also stipulate that I will probably not be able to stop you from killing me. To draw and fire the first shot should take less than a second, even for a concealment holster (though police are using monstrosities now designed to retain a weapon at all costs which hinder their ability to deploy a handgun). At fifteen feet you don't even need to develop a good sight picture but can simply start shooting while you are still railing your pistol out. This isn't a scenario where you are walking along unsuspecting and all of a sudden you have to identify a threat, decide you need to shoot it, drop whatever is in your hands, pull your jacket back, and then draw.

The turing drill (sp?) which is famous for demonstrating how quickly an assailant with a knife can close distance is where the 21 ft. rule comes from for police officers. For those that don't know, the drill is for an 'armed' assailant to rush the defender while he tries to draw and employ his weapon without the distance being closed. It is hard, and to be done right the defender needs to retreat in order to create as much time as possible. But this drill is designed partly to allow a police officer or whatnot to stop an attacker without ever being hurt, and mostly to teach how important distance is. I never said you wouldn't get hurt or killed, only that if you knew what you were doing you could put a few rounds into the aggressor first. Oh, and the bad guy gets to start running before the officer can draw.

Safe carry for a pistol is typically loaded with a round in the chamber but the safety on (if it has one) or decocked and in a holster. The holster doesn't need to have a dozen retention devices and if I knew I was about to be fighting for my life (and I decided not to draw ahead of time) I would probably choose a fairly fast Kydex holster of some kind. There would be no mucking about pulling clothes out of the way, fumbling with the slide to load a round, getting a sight picture, or even trying to identify the threat (because under your scenario it is a known threat). You would only have to draw and fire, possibly even keeping the gun tucked up in retention and never even attempting to extend your arms.

Even if you had a sword, it would be in a sheath which would require several seperate motions before you could employ it, and a much longer 'draw' stroke than with a pistol. You would still have to grab both the sword and scabbord, draw the sword (which puts you in a horrible position for either defense or offense as your arm is extended out away from you and the tip is pointing back towards you), pull your arm back and bring the sword into position, and then swing/stab as necessary. It wouldn't be any faster than a pistol to deploy. Of course you could say that you would be holding it, but then I can safely hold a pistol. If you are slow on the draw and have not completely removed the sword before the distance is closed, it will become very difficult to use it while someone with a pistol could still just point and shoot (shorter swords excepted).

10-23-2008, 06:33 PM	#23 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I wasn't speaking about the average person, but about people who are competent with whatever weapon they choose. Somone who spends a lot of time behind a gun will be much quicker than your average joe or police officer. I can guarantee that I will be able to shoot you several times before you close the distance. However, I will also stipulate that I will probably not be able to stop you from killing me. To draw and fire the first shot should take less than a second, even for a concealment holster (though police are using monstrosities now designed to retain a weapon at all costs which hinder their ability to deploy a handgun). At fifteen feet you don't even need to develop a good sight picture but can simply start shooting while you are still railing your pistol out. This isn't a scenario where you are walking along unsuspecting and all of a sudden you have to identify a threat, decide you need to shoot it, drop whatever is in your hands, pull your jacket back, and then draw. The turing drill (sp?) which is famous for demonstrating how quickly an assailant with a knife can close distance is where the 21 ft. rule comes from for police officers. For those that don't know, the drill is for an 'armed' assailant to rush the defender while he tries to draw and employ his weapon without the distance being closed. It is hard, and to be done right the defender needs to retreat in order to create as much time as possible. But this drill is designed partly to allow a police officer or whatnot to stop an attacker without ever being hurt, and mostly to teach how important distance is. I never said you wouldn't get hurt or killed, only that if you knew what you were doing you could put a few rounds into the aggressor first. Oh, and the bad guy gets to start running before the officer can draw. Safe carry for a pistol is typically loaded with a round in the chamber but the safety on (if it has one) or decocked and in a holster. The holster doesn't need to have a dozen retention devices and if I knew I was about to be fighting for my life (and I decided not to draw ahead of time) I would probably choose a fairly fast Kydex holster of some kind. There would be no mucking about pulling clothes out of the way, fumbling with the slide to load a round, getting a sight picture, or even trying to identify the threat (because under your scenario it is a known threat). You would only have to draw and fire, possibly even keeping the gun tucked up in retention and never even attempting to extend your arms. Even if you had a sword, it would be in a sheath which would require several seperate motions before you could employ it, and a much longer 'draw' stroke than with a pistol. You would still have to grab both the sword and scabbord, draw the sword (which puts you in a horrible position for either defense or offense as your arm is extended out away from you and the tip is pointing back towards you), pull your arm back and bring the sword into position, and then swing/stab as necessary. It wouldn't be any faster than a pistol to deploy. Of course you could say that you would be holding it, but then I can safely hold a pistol. If you are slow on the draw and have not completely removed the sword before the distance is closed, it will become very difficult to use it while someone with a pistol could still just point and shoot (shorter swords excepted). __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence Last edited by Slims; 10-23-2008 at 06:39 PM..