Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - News on the security report that was leaked

4thTimeLucky · 06-08-2003, 08:47 AM

Ooh, I got a smiley!

Indeed weapons inspections cannot go on forever. Nor need they.
Either he had a WMD threat or he did not.

@ IF he did NOT (and I think that current circumstances are leaning in this direction) then I grant that we could never realistically 'discover' that fact. To prove the non-existence of something is pretty much impossible. But the level of technology was such that we could have put enough pressure on Saddam that we investigated every site that the CIA said he held or produced WMDs at. Then we would have found (as we are with unlimited access) that there were neither any WMDs nor any traces of WMDs. We would have said: "Look, we've searched everywhere the intelligence agencies told us to. We've spoken to Iraqi sceintists and even repatriated some to tell us more. Still we have nothing. With such a total lack of findings [as there now is] we must conclude that there is no serious threat to the world's security."

@ IF he DID have WMD, then a thorough search of the sites the CIA listed would have found it (or traces of it) and would have meant a second Security Council vote on whether to respond with force or some other means.

Now I dislike Saddam as much you do. But I see a very clear distinction between the two justifications for war. There is security and there is humanity. So far it looks like we would have failed to get him on the security charge and any war based on that would be illegal. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't address the humanitarian issue. So.....

@ A member state should bring the case to the UN that Saddam is causing a humanitarian disaster to his own people. The UN would then debate it. Is he? Isn't he? How much is down to the sanctions? Should we be intervening in Iraq when lots of other states do worse?

What would I like to see? Well one accetable outcome of such a debate would be a decision by the UN to act under Chapter 7 to do what America has just done on its own. However, I suspect this would not occur. And as senctions have disasterously failed the Iraqi people, I suspect another tack would be used. That is not to shun Saddam and give him the tool (sanctions) to oppress his people, but instead to treat him as returned friend. Crazy? Its what we did with North Korea and besides the recent silly show of force, it has meant that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved from starvation and the relationship kept 'cool'.

We could use the UN to invade countries with bad leaders, but war is a last resort and a crude tool. Far better is to use our combined intelligence and resources to help these countries. Saddam was once an ally and could have been a partner again. This time in helping his people, not fighting communism. Democracy will never flourish in poverty. What you need is to rebuild the Iraqi middle class and give its people prosperity. Then they will take their fate into their own hands.

Talk of an 'axis of evil' is nonsense. These are not 'evil' leaders or 'evil' states. They are merely very self interested and very ruthless. What we need to do is chanel that self interest so that it works to the benefit of the population, not against it.

06-08-2003, 08:47 AM	#36 (permalink)
4thTimeLucky Psycho Location: 4th has left the building - goodbye folks	Ooh, I got a smiley! Indeed weapons inspections cannot go on forever. Nor need they. Either he had a WMD threat or he did not. @ IF he did NOT (and I think that current circumstances are leaning in this direction) then I grant that we could never realistically 'discover' that fact. To prove the non-existence of something is pretty much impossible. But the level of technology was such that we could have put enough pressure on Saddam that we investigated every site that the CIA said he held or produced WMDs at. Then we would have found (as we are with unlimited access) that there were neither any WMDs nor any traces of WMDs. We would have said: "Look, we've searched everywhere the intelligence agencies told us to. We've spoken to Iraqi sceintists and even repatriated some to tell us more. Still we have nothing. With such a total lack of findings [as there now is] we must conclude that there is no serious threat to the world's security." @ IF he DID have WMD, then a thorough search of the sites the CIA listed would have found it (or traces of it) and would have meant a second Security Council vote on whether to respond with force or some other means. Now I dislike Saddam as much you do. But I see a very clear distinction between the two justifications for war. There is security and there is humanity. So far it looks like we would have failed to get him on the security charge and any war based on that would be illegal. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't address the humanitarian issue. So..... @ A member state should bring the case to the UN that Saddam is causing a humanitarian disaster to his own people. The UN would then debate it. Is he? Isn't he? How much is down to the sanctions? Should we be intervening in Iraq when lots of other states do worse? What would I like to see? Well one accetable outcome of such a debate would be a decision by the UN to act under Chapter 7 to do what America has just done on its own. However, I suspect this would not occur. And as senctions have disasterously failed the Iraqi people, I suspect another tack would be used. That is not to shun Saddam and give him the tool (sanctions) to oppress his people, but instead to treat him as returned friend. Crazy? Its what we did with North Korea and besides the recent silly show of force, it has meant that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved from starvation and the relationship kept 'cool'. We could use the UN to invade countries with bad leaders, but war is a last resort and a crude tool. Far better is to use our combined intelligence and resources to help these countries. Saddam was once an ally and could have been a partner again. This time in helping his people, not fighting communism. Democracy will never flourish in poverty. What you need is to rebuild the Iraqi middle class and give its people prosperity. Then they will take their fate into their own hands. Talk of an 'axis of evil' is nonsense. These are not 'evil' leaders or 'evil' states. They are merely very self interested and very ruthless. What we need to do is chanel that self interest so that it works to the benefit of the population, not against it. __________________ I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless! Last edited by 4thTimeLucky; 06-08-2003 at 08:49 AM..