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roachboy · 09-22-2008, 05:38 PM

well, if you haven't read it before, you should read thoreau's "on civil disobedience"--he made a similar argument--he opposed the mexican war, he paid taxes, such as they were in the 1840s, and figured that he didnt want to pay for something he opposed, so he refused to pay taxes. the counter argument was that tax money is pooled, so he couldnt know where his particular money went--no-one knows what they pay for in particular--so there was no reason for him to think that by not paying taxes that he was therefore not paying for the mexican war. of course, he had an aunt who bailed him out of jail after a few days and he got a good essay out of it, which is more than most of us get from most such things. and it is a good thing to read for the argument and for the way he says it, which is quite pissy, and he was good at pissy. he was good at walking through landscapes too, but thats another story.

i don't see the fiscal responsibility argument you're making at all, cyn. i really don't. i don't see how it follows---i don't see any arguments against health care in general not being a right, though--one of the things that capitalism should provide the people in exchange for being able to derive profit from interactions with them, and as something consistent with the claims capitalists make about the system--that it helps distance people from necessity, that it can make a better more humane way of life possible. that seems a desirable political goal, making people's lives better. it's one i support. i do not support the idea that "fiscal responsibility" exists in a vacuum, that it is independent of other considerations. i think it is fiscally irresponsible for a civilized country NOT to pay for basic health care. it's far MORE irresponsible to pay for shit like nuclear weapon systems. you want to free up money for this sort of thing? be more a pacifist and advocate dismantling the national security state--that be responsible in a thousand ways, and way way down there on the list would be "fiscal responsibility"....but it'd be there.

09-22-2008, 05:38 PM	#249 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, if you haven't read it before, you should read thoreau's "on civil disobedience"--he made a similar argument--he opposed the mexican war, he paid taxes, such as they were in the 1840s, and figured that he didnt want to pay for something he opposed, so he refused to pay taxes. the counter argument was that tax money is pooled, so he couldnt know where his particular money went--no-one knows what they pay for in particular--so there was no reason for him to think that by not paying taxes that he was therefore not paying for the mexican war. of course, he had an aunt who bailed him out of jail after a few days and he got a good essay out of it, which is more than most of us get from most such things. and it is a good thing to read for the argument and for the way he says it, which is quite pissy, and he was good at pissy. he was good at walking through landscapes too, but thats another story. i don't see the fiscal responsibility argument you're making at all, cyn. i really don't. i don't see how it follows---i don't see any arguments against health care in general not being a right, though--one of the things that capitalism should provide the people in exchange for being able to derive profit from interactions with them, and as something consistent with the claims capitalists make about the system--that it helps distance people from necessity, that it can make a better more humane way of life possible. that seems a desirable political goal, making people's lives better. it's one i support. i do not support the idea that "fiscal responsibility" exists in a vacuum, that it is independent of other considerations. i think it is fiscally irresponsible for a civilized country NOT to pay for basic health care. it's far MORE irresponsible to pay for shit like nuclear weapon systems. you want to free up money for this sort of thing? be more a pacifist and advocate dismantling the national security state--that be responsible in a thousand ways, and way way down there on the list would be "fiscal responsibility"....but it'd be there. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite