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Originally Posted by Willravel
Can we finally all stand up and admit that Reagan was wrong? Can we at least do that, so we can start regulating the market reasonably again? Every time I even try to skirt this issue, I'm called a communist or fascist, and I feel like I'm the only one that was actually thinking in my freshman economics class.
The deregulated market didn't trickle down. It created more opportunities for incompetency or corruption, that's all. The final cost of the S&L nightmare was something like $500 billion. Here we are again. We've got corporate lobbyists further de-clawing and manipulating government so that they can reign free, and when they fail—and they'll all fail—the weak and cowardly government has to give away billions of our tax dollars.
-Mugatu, Zoolander
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Depends on what you think he was wrong on. Trickle down and supply side? Yeah, that was retarded. Cutting taxes from nearly 80% and dealing with the USSR, he was absolutely correct.
-----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 10 : 05-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
The "free" market isn't realistic. This has been made abundantly clear again and again and again. None of this horrible crisis could have happened had there been reasonable regulation. Not only that, but trickle down? It's lead to a massive gap between upper and lower class, and the middle class is disappearing into nothingness.
It becomes socialist when we have collective property, not before then.
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So what then, would you suggest? Nationalized economies? Partial free market? Free market but with some oversight and minimal regulation?
I don't think the concept of free market is too blame. It's the corruption. In fact, we don't have a true free market.
-----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 17 : 33-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
depends what you like, really. if you like a coherent social order, you'll relegate "free markets" to places like ayn rand novels, where they are safely removed from realities and wrapped in protective purple prose that only the intrepid brave, and even these generally only in their late teens.
it is in part the ideology that makes this absurd separation between "markets" and "regulation" or law that explains in significant measure why we are sitting around watching the financial catastrophe show. that's been one of the main interpretive claims in the thread.
fell free to join in the party, though---put stuff up that you might find which you think either gives a fragment of a picture that can be used to piece together and image, or something that provides a basis for provisional interpretation.
it's all done on the fly anyway.
i smell popcorn.
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Roach, if the free market and Ayn Rand novels (and their teen readers) offend you so much, what would you propose (besides a book burning)? A command central economy? Nationalized economy? Redistribution of labor and wealth to be decided by a centralized government to be run by the intellectual elite? What about a proper free market with some regulation and oversight?
All you do is bash, bash, bash. It's as if you take a sick pleasure in watching the economy decline at the moment while eating your popcorn.
Really, what do you think? Do you think this is a temporary hiccup or the beginning of the end? If it's the end, what do you think will take its place?
-----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 21 : 23-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya
I keep hearing references to Ayn Rand pop up during this election. I don't really know why... it's starting to get on my nerves for some reason.
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What gets on your nerves? The references or the actual novels? The only people referencing Ayn Rand are the ones bashing it. Someone recommended an Ayn Rand novel in a different thread and got bashed for it. I haven't read any of her stuff but now I'm curious as to why her books are so offensive to people. Must contain a lot of graphic violence, baby killing, homophobia, misogyny and racist stereotypes or something to have so many people over react to the mere mention of her name.
-----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 22 : 53-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
Oh, I know Obama is going to win the popular vote and likely get more delegates. My concern is how close the race will be. In 2000, the race was a dead heat which allowed to SCOTUS to help steal the damned thing.
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At the moment, it is a dead heat. The Dems had better get going in ramping up their campaign.