View Single Post
Old 08-04-2008, 10:05 AM   #7 (permalink)
Willravel
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
CandleInTheDark,

Maybe I should leave climate change at the door because it's such a hot-button issue.

Anyway about pollution... it's effects are rarely quick and are often cumulative. Let's say you have a leather company. You use chemicals to treat the leather, which you dump locally to save costs because you've been assured there are no negative short term effects on the environment. 50 years later, people are getting sick because it's seeped into the ground water. When you consider the 50 years of more expensive dumping in an area where it theoretically cannot hurt anyone compared to possible liability for the health effects on some people, it turns out that it's more cost effective to dump locally and have a few sick people settle in court 50 years down the line. By my understanding, according to libertarian theory, the correct libertarian decision would be to dump locally, right? There could be some fallout with some buyers, as people speak with their wallets, but if you're able to pass on the savings (or remain competitive in some way due to the cheaper costs of local dumping) a lot of customers may decided to stay on board because they're not directly effected. Or affected, I get those confused.
-----Added 4/8/2008 at 02 : 16 : 32-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSD View Post
Well, I dropped my LP membership after realizing that the party has no direction and is an incoherent mix of single-issue voters dedicated to every cause out there, religious nuts who want to dismantle government authority so that religion can take its place, and right-wingers who don't like the religious connotations of the Republican Party. Only one of their top candidates had an immigration policy that was anything other than xenophobic or outright racist, and Bob Barr ... that was a joke, right? But I'll answer anyway. I do not agree with everything I'm saying, but I'm giving the libertarian response to each question.
I appreciate your responding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSD View Post
The basic libertarian principle is to regulate only to prevent harm to others and to force those who do harm to take responsibility. Air/water/food quality and sustainable use of natural resources are necessary to prevent harming ourselves and others, so ideologically pure libertarians would believe that legislation to prevent individuals and businesses from polluting to a dangerous degree is ethically allowable. LP members are more likely to favor a free market of carbon credit trading regardless of the fact that it wouldn't work.
So you're saying that LP members and pure libertarian theory are at odds on this issue? That's very interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSD View Post
The basis of libertarian philosophy is that the right to extend one's fist ends at the tip of your neighbor's nose. If something does not directly harm others, it should not be regulated. Therefore, guns shouldn't be regulated, using them to harm others should.
So the idea of prevention measures would not likely be popular with libertarians. Moving away from guns, though, it still seems that rights are held to be sacred in libertarian theory. They are beyond reproach so long as they don't directly injure others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSD View Post
A person who owns property (by allodial deed) is free to act on his property in any way that does not directly harm others. Food, water, and shelter are basic human needs and may not be taken away by a government. Deeds in the US and most other countries grant permission to use the land to a certain depth below ground level and a certain height above ground level, but can be seized through a number of legal means. To put conditions on property ownership means that the individual is not the fundamental unit of society, whereas libertarianism holds the individual as that fundamental unit.
No, I'm talking about the idea of personal property being a necessary mode for libertarianism. It seems that mode is never really established. Collective ownership can work and has been demonstrated to work in human history. Considering that, wouldn't libertarianism be based on an incorrect assumption: that private ownership is moral/natural/etc.

I've had several lengthy debates with a good friend of mine who is a Mises worshipper and he insists that private ownership is moral, natural, and correct and that anything else is wrong or somehow doesn't even exist. This belief is not uncommon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSD View Post
Libertarianism holds that an individual is entitled to what he earns in a free market, not what a government decides he is entitled to or says he is allowed to earn. This is the basis of opposition to affirmative action, income tax, etc.
This assumes that the market is fair. I don't ever recall seeing evidence that the market is consistently fair. Maybe it's a difference in what I think "fair" is compared to a libertarian?

Last edited by Willravel; 08-04-2008 at 10:16 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Willravel is offline  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360