Originally Posted by Willravel

Fortunately, as this is a forum, we can scroll up and read. You very plainly responded to Ratbastid's post about the nonviolent protester in Tienanmen Square and Gandhi by claiming that they were martyrs like suicide bombers.

We were talking about nonviolence, and The_Jazz has a strong suspicion that the man in Tienanmen Square was tortured and killed. We don't even know if the man is dead or not, so calling him a martyr is incorrect. Rat was simply postulating that, if he did die, he did so as a nonviolent protester. You tried to reframe the conversation from nonviolence to martyrdom and you did so by comparing Gandhi and the man in Tienanmen Square to suicide bombers.

Also, what Rat said.

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Well, let's ask them, shall we?

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
-Gandhi

"Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary."
-Gandhi

"I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life."
-Gandhi (a little martyrish there, eh Cynth?)

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."
-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

And one of my personal favorites:

"Let no man pull you low enough to hate him."
-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

By the way: easy to be a pacifist when there's nothing at risk? You're damn right, ace:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Think he was talking about how big a gun you're standing with in times of challenge and controversy?

Originally Posted by cynthetiq

No politicians aren't different. I'm not surprised that Obama waffles on an issue. He's a politician. It's part of the definition of the game of politics.

I really don't know why Americans are surprised and shocked that things happen with lying, graft, corruption, embezzlement, nepotism, and cronyism. It isn't much different than any other countries, the biggest difference is that we have due process to criminalize their actions and can remove them from office since they don't serve uncontestable life terms in office.

It seems to me that many think that politicians are above being human.