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Old 05-20-2008, 09:50 AM   #131 (permalink)
Jinn
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Location: Seattle, WA
Quote:
The point I was making was that, according to the logic/rationale of one who carries a gun with them, you would have probably returned fire. You're shot in the leg and I would assume that you duck for cover and pull your weapon simultaneously, opening fire to neutralize the threat. I think we've had enough gun/"defense" threads to establish a normal response in a given situation by a gun owner.
If it happened as you described and everyone scurried to the cover of their cars and sped off, then no, I wouldn't have "returned fire." The use of lethal force is only justified when the threat still exists. If he shot off two rounds and dropped his gun, there's not really a lethal force situation anymore, either. I'd make efforts to ensure that no one reached for it and raised it again to a lethal force situation, however. If someone shoots at you and drives away, you're not justified in chasing them down and shooting at them. If someone makes ANY effort to flee after using or attempting to use lethal force, you aren't legally (nor ethically, in my book) justified in pursuing them.

Truth be told, the situation would've probably unfolded exactly as it did for you, if we simply replaced you with me. If I believe that you really didn't have time to see the firearm or flee, then there really isn't much you can do, firearm or not. I don't have a superhero complex, and I don't believe I would've been able to react any faster than you, if the threat came and went with a flash and a bang.

The primary effect of carrying a gun is not to end lives, but to deter criminals from doing you harm and to physically prevent them BEFORE they're able to. After the fact, after you've been harmed, fatally or otherwise, whether you have a gun or not is moot.

This, however, bothers me:
Quote:
The problem was that this was just a kid being dumb. Actually it was several, yours truly included. Did we deserve to die?
First of all, no one "deserves" to die. Criminals do things that are terrible and reprehensible, but I'm unlike most gun owners in that I don't support the death penalty. I don't want ANYONE to die, if it can be prevented.
With my perspective in mind, you can (hopefully) understand that I can't say "yes, he deserved to die."

It would be a tragedy for this 20-something "kid" to die in a volley of gunfire for doing something so 'stupid' as brandishing and discharging a firearm that he wasn't trained to use responsibily. He's got family and friends too, and I know that they would miss him and cry for him. He could've been the scientist who cures cancer, for all I know. I will do everything in my power to protect the lives of anyone that I can.

BUT ALL OF THAT FALLS APART WHEN SOMEONE THREATENS *MY* LIFE. I enhabit this shell, this is MY life, and so I can justify ending someone else's life when they threaten mine. It's not about wishing death on someone or feeling someone "deserves" to die. It's about valuing my own life and body above those who would do it harm.

I also reject your claim that this is "just a kid being dumb." A "kid being dumb" is a teenager who lies to their parents about the grade they got in Geography. A "kid being dumb" is a teenager who cheats on his high school girlfriend.

Someone who brandishes a firearm and threatens someone with it is not a "dumb kid". They're a "dangerous criminal." And someone who DISCHARGES that firearm in the direction of other human beings is a "dangerous criminal recklessly endagering the lives of others."
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