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Originally Posted by filtherton
Well, to be clear, it isn't the guest who is changing the owner's health concern. It is the local government.
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Acting on orders from those obnoxious guests.
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Try to make an argument supporting the notion that private business owners should have absolute control when it comes to choosing to allow their patrons to smoke indoors without resorting to broad, axiomatic notions of the unalienable rights of private business people.
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Why should I? Those broad, axiomatic notions are perfectly sufficient. It's not different in any significant way from banning smoking in private homes. Require all the skull-and-bones door warnings you want, make it perfectly clear that a bar may carry health risks (you don't say!), but recognize your completely unfettered ability to leave buildings you don't like.
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Being forced to go outside to feed a bad habit? Eh. Cry me a river. The majority could do a lot worse.
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And they could do a lot better. Let's not settle for 'mediocre'.
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I have a difficult time finding sympathy for people who rely on FUD where reason would be a lot more useful.
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FUD?
I disagree that such arguments
aren't using reason.
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This isn't to say that you can't address things you don't like. It just seems to me to frame it as some sort of matter of "justice" shows a lack of perspective.
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Not in the slightest. Framing it as a matter of "the gravest, most serious injustice since Hitler had a bad day" would show a lack of perspective. But framing it as a matter of justice is just plain accurate.
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No, but you are arguing a position that is essentially pro-smoking by proxy. It's like when the ACLU defends the KKK.
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The ACLU wasn't defending racism and I'm not defending smoking. If you're just saying that it can
look otherwise to some lazy thinkers, well sure, but I couldn't care less about them. They'll be lazy thinkers no matter what I do.
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In any case, the interface between private property and the general public with respect to matters of public health isn't nearly as simple as you seem to think they are.
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With the passage of these "matters of public health" concerning
private property, I'm aware that it's not very simple. I'm arguing that it should be.