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Originally Posted by filtherton
Okay, but it's a stretch to call anything this judge did racist or hateful. You, as someone who seems to constantly lament being called a racist, should understand this.
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I think it is very prejudicial. Racist... the action did separate a race and if this was a speech to "shape up these men", it could have been done elsewhere or to all races, I see this as race based discrimination so an argument on whether the judge was being racist here is debatable. Hateful is a strong word and should not have been used. You make a very good point here.
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I agree that we need people who don't promote hatred. I think you have an overly broad definition of promoting hatred.
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If you preach prejudice and blame others for your problems or lack of success it is usually in a very hateful way.
This would be a good point in which to cover, if we were truly having a discussion on how to better relations. We would have to achieve a common definition of what promotes hatred.
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I know you find it bullshit. I think you're over reacting. I mean shit, why stop at not throwing everybody just the nonblacks out of the courtroom. Why didn't the judge take out an ad on one of his local radio stations, or better yet, why didn't he write a book? Like you said, how are we, or this judge to know that others would not benefit from what he said?
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I have stated had he done this outside his role as a judge and outside of the courthouse, it would be a civilian talking and expressing his opinion and advice to help those he wanted to help. I would have no problem with that whatsoever.
But in a courtroom, while in session or not, in the role of judge, this was prejudicial, in the very arena we should not be having any separation between groups of people.
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I know you're a parent, so you should be aware of the differences, psychologically speaking, between lecturing someone in front of strangers and lecturing them in front of just their peers. Perhaps the judge felt that lecturing these young men in front of the rest of the court wouldn't have the desired effect. Do we even know what he said, specifically? If not, why are you making such a big fuss about it? It's quite possible that had he said whatever he said in front of everybody it would have been of little benefit to anybody else with respect to the lessening effect it might have had on the people for whom it was intended.
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But then are you saying we should look at the courts as "parents" and the defendants as "children". I know it' just an analogy.... but it's a stretch. Government is not our parent, government is there to protect us and to serve us in various ways without discrimination, without separation.
It took how long to get the government to look at the black man equally and now, now, you feel it is ok for an agent of the court to separate them.
It truly makes no sense to me.
Again, I have no problem if he goes into the community and works and speaks out to help those in that community with positive messages.... I would heavily applaud the man.
But in the setting it was held in.... I have serious issues with.
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I think you are too quick to use the word hate, and it causes you problems when communicating with other people. Prejudice and hate are two different things and they don't necessarily always overlap. Accusing this judge, or anyone who supports him, or racial hatred is ridiculous. It is difficult to take one who makes such accusations seriously, especially when it is possible, given that little that we actually know about this judge, that the judge in question has done more to further race relations than you could ever hope to.
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I am quick with the word hate, I am very passionate about 5 issues in politics... trying to get America back to recognizing its greatness and the wonderment of our freedoms not have them taken away because select groups find problems with those freedoms (rights), race relations, illegal immigration, education, finding economic stability and ways to distribute prosperity more fairly. But I also realize why I am not a politician. I find, especially in this medium but in all aspects of my life to some degree, I am easily flustered in trying to get across my point. My passion for these
Perhaps, this judge has done great things to help race relations, this was not one. It is true, I should not base my judgment on this man for one negative action he made.
They have millions of followers that believe what they sell. Again, it is easier to blame the white man and the government for your failures than it is to work and get out of the negative area in which you live.
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But it is reasonable. Someone who wasn't racist and discriminatory, full of hate you might say, wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of race.
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I disagree here. Just because one is not racist nor discriminatory, does not mean that they are blind. There are problems here and we do need to work on finding positive solutions. It just seems that many who believe they have solutions end up taking it to far the other way and becoming hypocritical, which leads to more problems and not solutions.
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So is your problem with what the judge did, or that you perceive some sort of double standard exists with respect to which judges can do it?
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This is a very complex issue.... on one hand we have is this an abuse of power, but then the deeper issue becomes the racial underbelly, that people don't want to talk about. How can you allow one judge of one background to do this, while condemning and saying a judge of a different background can't nor should be allowed to do this.
I have problems with both, because as shown here they tend to overlap.
Any judge doing this would have been wrong on the superficial level.
The double standard that says this judge can but others can't is wrong on a different underbelly level.
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Originally Posted by percy
I 've read this entire thread(I dont know why I wasted the time) and pan you say you want to find common ground but you don't. All you are trying to do is beat your opinion into other people's heads and come to the consensus you are correct.
I think you said (may have been someone else) that if any other judges did this it still is as prejudicial as this one in this context. I just don't agree with your reasoning. I see this judge trying to instill some pride and responsibility into people of his race to do better.
What if he singled them out. Would you be arguing the opposite had he done the same in front of a packed court room, potentially embarrassing and humiliating them in front of other races, perhaps giving the impression they were inferior? I understand your point, that being if he had a message, he should have said it to everyone regardless of race. But you are not understanding his point, that being his feeling that there are problems in the black community and people need to step up.
This guy should be commended for being a role model, not admonished for trying to create positive change in his people.
Why you are arguing this ad nauseum is beyond me. Honestly for most people this is a no brainer. Try to see this from the opposite point of view, honestly, then see how your reasoning stacks up.
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Again, if you find it ok for a judge to separate groups in a court room and do this, I can understand. I don't agree with it but I can truly comprehend the argument.
But when one says.... this judge can do that and I'll praise him.... that a white judge can't and I'll call him a racist and demand his job.
Do you see the hypocrisy?
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Originally Posted by Martian
This is a valid point; really, my only intention here was to highlight what I view as a flawed argument. Malcolm X was many things, but peaceful was rarely one of them.
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Towards Malcolm's end, he was changing very much. I provided quotes that demonstrated this above.
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Originally Posted by MalcolmX
I am not a racist.... In the past I permitted myself to be used...to make sweeping indictments of all white people, the entire white race and these generalizations have caused injuries to some whites who perhaps did not deserve to be hurt. Because of the spiritual enlightenment which I was blessed to receive as a result of my recent pilgrimage to the Holy city of Mecca, I no longer subscribe to sweeping indictments of any one race. I am now striving to live the life of a true...Muslim. I must repeat that I am not a racist nor do I subscribe to the tenants of racism. I can state in all sincerity that I wish nothing but freedom, justice and equality, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all people.
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Originally Posted by MalcolmX
For 12 long years I lived within the narrow-minded confines of the 'straightjacket world' created by my strong belief that Elijah Muhammad was a messenger direct from God Himself, and my faith in what I now see to be a pseudo-religious philosophy that he preaches.... I shall never rest until I have undone the harm I did to so many well-meaning, innocent Negroes who through my own evangelistic zeal now believe in him even more fanatically and more blindly than I did.
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http://www.malcolm-x.org/quotes.htm