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Charlatan is right, this conversation is very much like the dialogue about race.
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It's unfortunate, isn't it? The reason the racism thread become frustrating for all was that there is a definite segment of the population (on TFP and elsewhere) who justify to themselves that racism and sexism are gone. They think that just because they don't call people niggers and make them pick the cotton or because they don't demand the bitch stay in the kitchen, that neither racism nor sexism exists anymore. They call it "white guilt" - as if our reasons for creating programs for the disadvantaged comes from a "guilt" about what has happened to women and minorities in the past. That's so silly, because I don't need to feel guilty about the past - it still happens today.
They think that just because THEIR friends are black, or just because THEY treat women with respect that all people treat blacks and women fairly. RACISM AND SEXISM ARE NOT GONE. JUST BECAUSE WE AREN'T IN 1950 DOES NOT MEAN IT DOES NOT STILL HAPPEN.
I see sexism every fucking day, and it bothers me because it happens to people I care about. You know, those people we mentioned earlier - wives, mothers and sisters. I care that they're still discriminated against, STILL told who they should be and what they should look like by the media, in 2008.
It makes sense to rationalize to yourself that sexism and racism are gone, because it allows you to continue participating in racist or sexist hierarchies, allows you to keep
saying the same things you've always been saying, and it allows you to do be
who you are without feeling bad about the direct effect it has on others. And really, it's simpler to think that what we say and how we say it has no effect, that racism and sexism are gone, and that people who take issue with the language we're using are the ones who need to lighten up. It actually takes EFFORT to change how we act and what we say, and most people just aren't up for making that effort. It's easier to live the way they've always lived.
I can understand justifying that "It's always been this way" and "I'm not racist or sexist so it doesn't exist", because I used to believe it too. The scary part is when you realize that it's still out there, that the things we say and do actually DO have effect on a sociological level.
To insist that what we say has no effect on others belays an obvious ignorance of sociology. Where do you think eating disorders come from?
If you only ever "compliment" women by saying "I'd hit that" in their precense because they're physically attractive, what does that teach them about their
value? If the media and the citizenry value only physical attractiveness in women, then we end up with girls taught at a young age that the only way to get ahead is to be pretty, not to be interested in science in math, not to have a head on their shoulders, but to be pretty. Think about what your words
teach people about themselves in relation to society, and you might see why constantly uttering or typing "I'd hit that" causes a problem.
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Originally Posted by Little Women
If you feel your value lies only in being merely decorative, I fear that someday you might find yourself believing that's all you really are.
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As I said in my OP, and will repeat here, I'm not interested in censorship. I'm not interested in telling people what they can or can't say or do. What I asked, was "HOW can we get male bonding, camaraderie and self-esteem WITHOUT objectifying women"?
I'm not denying that it is effective or commonplace, only that it's not the best way to attain the stated goals.