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Originally Posted by Martian
This is the last I've got to say on the matter, because going in circles makes me dizzy. It has occurred to me, however, that much of the seeming vitriol present here stems from what appears to be a disconnect in the argument itself. Nobody has and nobody will defend inappropriate behaviour. What follows, then, is quibbling over what precisely constitutes appropriate behaviour.
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#1 I am not vitriolic. I am expressing myself plainly and honestly.
#2 You have not offended me.
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I didn't state or even intend to imply that you were 'holding onto the past.' This is, in fact, precisely why I'd asked you to clarify; I was unclear regarding your stance here.
Accepting the proper place of the past events is a tricky business at the best of times. I'm all for learning from past mistakes, but I'd rather avoid having to atone for the sins of my father. This was the general statement I was trying to make and was not intended as a specific attack against anyone.
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Well you responded to the part of my post that was actually directed toward someone else and then made a statement about 'not holding a grudge.' Which prompted me to clarify what I meant because I am not holding a grudge.
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I've clearly offended you and for that I apologize. On the other hand, it's simply not in my nature to hide myself or lie about who I am. I like looking at attractive women. Sometimes I have lascivious thoughts about them, and sometimes I choose to express that. The form it takes is dependent entirely on the company I find myself in.
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No need to apologize for anything. Really. I don't know what I said that gave you the impression I am being vitriolic.
And this is fine. I've stated before, it is not the 'casual user' that I have a problem with, lol. It's the guys you are modeling in a humorous way that I am talking about. BUT, that said, I think there is an underlying dynamic of exploitation going on that you guys don't want to admit is there unless it is someone talking about a woman you care about. Then that is TABOO. And the taboo, the boundaries, are created by you (the guys) for your own purposes. The actual women walking around out there only serve as material for you. (Within the context of these 'male bonding' scenarios that we are talking about. Not as a general outlook on women.) At least admit that, and we can dispense with the
'you should be flattered' nonsense, lol.
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Actually, this is precisely what I don't get.
As stated above I am a fairly simple man and believe in honesty in all things. It's a high standard that I set for myself and I do strive towards it at all times. I am fully capable of recognizing that there are certain thoughts that are appropriate to voice in certain contexts that may be inappropriate in others. This is basic etiquette, and is not a difficult concept.
On the other hand, I fail to recognize the difference between thinking something sexual and saying it. The words, after all, are merely an extension of the thought, which exists regardless of whether or not it's expressed. These thoughts are a part of human nature and need to be handled tactfully, but repressing them completely seems somehow dishonest to me.
I would not tell a woman who I'd just met that she had great tits. It may be true, but it's not appropriate. I may tell her that she looks lovely. At it's core, these are really the same thing, in that I am expressing an appreciation of physical beauty. How I choose to express it depends largely on my audience, and therefore the social situation I find myself in. The words themselves are more a product of environment than thought process, which remains largely the same regardless of who I'm speaking with. I would go so far as to contend that any man who makes such lewd comments to a woman is suffering from nothing more than a failure to understand proper social boundaries, which judging by your above statements would seem to be something we agree on (though I'm loathe to assume it and will of course be open to any contradiction on the matter).
And really that's what I'm getting at here. The thoughts are normal and the words are just words. Some guys are ill-mannered and as a consequence choose the wrong ones, but they're not inherently harmful. The thought processes behind them may be, but of course it's ludicrous to think that we can paint half the Earth's population with the same brush.
And that really is all I have to say about that.
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Honesty is important, but just as important is dealing with the consequences of the words that come out of your mouth.
And I disagree that the words are inherently harmless. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are not. Yes, it is ludicrous to paint half the population with the same brush, as you say. Context and intent are not the same from man to man.