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Originally Posted by robot_parade
No, it isn't. It's a statement of anger at racism in the US. I really fail to understand how, in your mind, anger at racism is the same as racism itself. Now, stuff like that *is* divisive, and inappropriate. But I don't understand how it could be considered racist.
My mistake. There are several quotes under consideration here, some of them recent, some of them not so recent.
Honestly, I don't care about Farrakhan, at all. AFAICT, he's a bit of a crank. I'm having enough trouble keeping track of you damning Obama for his close contact with Wright. I don't have time for two degrees of separation here.
Listen to the context. Really. It's exactly the same formulation as right-wing ministers use when they say God damns America because we don't round up all the gays and force them to be straight, or whatever they want to do. I don't agree with it from a theological perspective, and it isn't exactly helpful, but there it is. He's saying that, because of America's actions, God will 'damn' it. Actions like wars in the middle east, supporting dictators, etc. If God goes around damning entire countries, I think he's far more likely to do so for starting unnecessary wars that for toleration gay people.
No, he didn't. He heard about them when the media generated this controversy.
Racism is *not* dead. Amazing amounts of progress have been made, but racism is not dead. The wounds of past racism have not been healed. There's natural resentment as we work to heal those wounds. Obama spoke very eloquently about this very subject the other day.
I have to say, I think you are completely ignoring the context in which this church was formed.
Then I think we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion. A congregation of people gathered together for protection against racism and hatred in the wider society is not hatred, and it is not supremacist.
"We" as in Americans. Oppression of black people is part of our heritage as Americans. It was codified in our laws, and part of our culture. Should we feel guilty about it? Of course not, we didn't do it. However, it is part of our culture, and our heritage, and we should understand the anger of people who have been oppressed all their lives, and work to correct the injustices.
For the record, my family on my father's side did own slaves. My parents still have some historical papers documenting the slaves our family owned. I don't feel guilty about it, but I do accept it as part of my heritage.
I don't agree with your assumption that Rev. Wright hates America, or that his church is based upon prejudice and hatred. A church founded around black cultural heritage is not prejudice. Anger does not equal hate.
Was your grandmother angry at those who beat her father? Was she ever angry at a country that was prejudiced against her family because of their heritage? Did she ever get together with relatives or people of German descent to discuss their shared experiences, and to encourage one another?
Again, more prejudice. Is being angry at those who were prejudiced and did hurtful things prejudiced? Is banding together for mutual support and comfort anti-american?
I have heard nothing hateful from Rev. Wright. Angry, divisive, unhelpful...yes. Is that the norm for him, in his 20 years of preaching? Did he get up every week and say these things? I'm guessing that...certain people...have combed through everything Rev. Wright is documented to have said, looking for things that could be taken as controversial. We have a few clips of him saying controversial things.
It talked about race in an adult way, for one of the first times I've ever seen in political dialogue. It talked about the challenges from multiple perspectives.
And he said that the views were not everything there was to know about the man. He has been preaching in this church for 20 years, and you and I have heard 5 minutes of what he's said. Neither of us can say we know everything there is to know about the man. I'm willing to take Obama at his word that these statements were not the norm.
Obama says he was not present during the sermons in question. Is there proof that he was?
None of the people on his political advisory committee are likely to be perfect (I hear Jesus turned him down...)
Again, we simply disagree that this church was founded on hatred.
Oh, I so don't care about what Oprah thinks. It's like a not-care sundae, with a really big not-caring-at-all cherry on top.
He said he believes that God *does* damn America when it does evil things.
It's shocking how widespread this belief is within the black community. It's wrong, and it propagates a culture of victimhood.
This is the second time you've mentioned Farrakhan. I'm just going to ignore it.
Again, Obama claims that the statements Rev. Wright is being condemned for are not the sort of things he heard from the pulpit for 20 years. I'm not going to enter into a discussion about McCain in this thread.
My only response to this is that you were clearly listening to his speech through a very strange filter.
He changed his website. Oh, darn. How about you listen to what he says instead of divining his intentions from changes to his website. He denounced the things Rev. Wright said, and re-iterated his respect for the man, despite is flaws.
But...but...that's not what he said...at all. You quoted him and everything, and I don't see how you can interpret what he said in that way. He didn't say Ferraro's statements were worse. His point was we shouldn't judge people from sound bytes taken out of context.
Sorry, but I snipped a bunch of stuff that I can't respond to other than repeat what I've already said.
I think I've made my case as best I can. If you've interpreted anything I've said as a personal attack, please believe it was not intended as such.
I've said everything I can to respond to your points - I'll read your reply, if any, but unless I have something new to say, forgive me if I don't respond.
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Ok, first, I want to thank you for honest sincere answers Robot. There were no attacks, you answered with your opinion of what I have said with what I believe to be honesty and respect.
I am just going to give a short answer, most of what I needed to say I said.
To me the Farrakhan issue is big. It should be one thing that shows where the church is, where Rev. Wright stands and where one can believe reasonably, Obama stands. To me it is huge that the man Obama calls his spiritual/religious mentor chose to go to Libya with Farrakhan in 1984 and that Obama still sought him out and followed his teachings. You can call it guilt by association or my trying to attack Obama's character or meaningless.... but to me this is one point that truly bothers me. Right or wrongly, I reiterate and repeat..... this is one huge ass issue with me.
I would feel the same if a white cadidate, named Pat Robertson his spiritual/religious mentor, and Pat had gone to Iraq in the 90's with David Duke.
Now to his credit Obama has denounced his church's and spiritual/religious mentor's naming of Farrakhan as a great humanitarian. Maybe I think of a spritual/religious mentor differently, but I could not nor would not call any man my spiritual/religious leader if he associated closely with David Duke or even Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell for that matter. It goes against everything I spiritually believe in. So forgive me if I have issues, reconciling to the fact that a man who wants to be president can still call a man that he states he has strong philosophical differences with.
Now, Obama states in his speech he was in the church when hateful things were said.
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Originally Posted by Obama
Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely – just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.
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Again, I when I have gone to church I look to find one that I can be proud of and agree with. If I heard a church leader spout hated and prejudice and "God Damn America", I guarantee I would not go back. Nor do I go to church for politics, the 2 do not belong together.
Just as you can look throughout my entire posting history, you will never once see me defend or justify or excuse anything Robertson/Falwell/etc have ever said. They are hateful and in no way represent the Jesus Christ I believe in. I feel the same way about Sharpton and now Rev. Wright. Nor is Farrakhan a true example of the Muslim/Islam religion.
Rev. Jesse Jackson, while at times controversial does preach love and I have never heard such hatred come out of him. I don't agree with all he says but that's because he at times gets lost in the past. Most of the time though, he gives very positive speeches concerning the future of race relations, much like MLK Jr. did.
You say I ignore the context for which this church was formed. But it seems to me so has Rev. Wright. It seems to me that his hatred and prejudice has led him away from Jesus' teachings (much like Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's have). For me, to have a candidate say that a Rev. who is so far away from what I see Christ teaching (love, forgiveness, working together to build a better future, etc) that to call him your spiritual/religious mentor you know Christ only as the Rev. sees him. Which would be hateful, spiteful and damning and used to further one's own political/social agenda.
I respect and thank you for not talking about McCain, it seemed there for awhile all some people could comeback with was "well what about McCain going to Hagee...." It's a point that has no true relevance, I put it in to kind of sop that nonsense, I appreciate you not giving it.
Overall, again, you defended your candidate very well and showed respect in doing so. That is all one can ask. I have brought out my concerns and tried to do so as respectfully as I know how.... I'm passionate about this because this man can be our next leader and I have questions, character means something to me. Sometimes my passion gets the best of me, but I'm not the only one in that category.
I think we can agree to disagree over some things. You see Obama one way, I see him another. But your response did give and wll give me things to think about. I may ask more questions, I may ask the same questions, again, to me this is a very important issue.... not necessarily because I plan to ever support him as a candidate, but will I be able to give him a chance to earn my respect as president?
I don't know..... I have too many questions, and yet when I ask them for the most part they go unanswered and respect goes out the window.
I cannot tell you how much it means that you took time to answer respectfully and to the best of your ability to show why you support the man and why you believe this is all a non issue to you.