Martian

Dude, it's the Big Bang theory, which is the most widely accepted theory we have on the subject.

Of course, we can't go back in time to see this bad boy, which makes it difficult. But we can use the theory to make a few educated guesses on what the Universe was like and where it should be now. We know that the Universe is expanding. In theory, the momentum for the expansion has to have come from somewhere. If we take the concept of singularities vis-a-vis blackholes as fact now (which pretty much everyone does, these days), we have an established precedent that singularities can exist. We can also state there's there's no theoretical limit to the amount of matter and energy that may be contained within a singularity; once it passes a certain gravitational threshold, the gravity produced by the mass already contained within the black hole is sufficient to continue to cause it to compact itself into an infinitely small point. Given that, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Universe may have originated from a black hole containing all matter and energy which, for reasons unknown, exploded violently.

Furthermore, models of the young Universe allow us to make predictions in regards to things like matter and energy distribution; we can use early models to make rough estimates on how things should be now. As with any good scientific theory, we then make observations and look for correlation. If what we observe doesn't match up with what we predict, we know we need to revise the theory. So far predictions made regarding things like background radiation using the Big Bang model have been consistent with observations, lending it credence.

If you're looking for incontrovertible proof that this is the way things are, I'm afraid you're doomed to disappointment. Science doesn't work that way. All we have are hypotheses and observations.

See, this is why I tried to emphasize the concept that time is a component of our Universe so strongly; it's exceedingly difficult to grasp. The simple fact is that the concept of true timelessness is completely outside the human sphere of experience, to the point where we don't really have language to describe it. There's no 'before' before the big bang and there's no 'after.' There's no timeline because there's no time. Anything that existed prior to the Big Bang just existed (and, incidentally, was impossible for us to describe in any meaningful way, since it existed outside the dimensions we use as references).

You're trying to apply logic to all this and really, I can't fault you for it. It even works, to a point. What you're failing to take into account, however, is that the Universe is a more bizarre place than anyone really has the capacity to understand. We have to kind of look at it sideways, which most people just aren't accustomed to doing. Suffice to say, however, that if it sates your curiosity I can point you toward evidence that things spontaneously pop into and out of existence all the friggin' time. Check out Hawking radiation for a starting point.

Sorry, I didn't see this the first time around. Suffice to say that I am aware of all your points, and as a future note to all those folks who always try to one-up me in any science discussion - I'm simplifying the subject matter for the sake of casual conversation. I thought I implied this in my post itself.

You're correct that natural selection is not the only process involved in evolution - if it were, we wouldn't need two seperate terms. However, natural selection is the primary driving force, particularly when discussing how life on Earth went from individual molecules floating around to creatures like you and I. If you'd like a more in-depth discussion on the subject I'd be more than happy to oblige, but I was under the impression that this thread was intended more as a primer meant to address specific concerns of those who are unclear on the broad subject.

Of course, we may be able to mathematically prove the inevitability of molecular life, as you point out, however this doesn't eliminate the question of what came first, but merely displaces it. I firmly believe that we'll always have gaps in our scientific understanding and if people want to fill those with theism I say more power to them.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame