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Yakk · 03-14-2008, 04:52 PM

If the universe is finite in time, then the question of "what comes before" could lead one to saying "god"?

The misunderstanding that "just because X is infinite, there is no room for other things" probably comes from a lack of understanding of how to manipulate infinity. A 3 dimensional space and 4th dimension time universe of infinite extent in all directions can be embedded in, say, a Hilbert space which contains an infinite number of dimensions.

Stick your god into the Hilbert space, and our universe takes up less "room" than a single dimensionless instant spec takes up in our universe.

So... "the universe is infinite" doesn't really provide any problems creating a structure that contains the universe, and is much much larger. The understanding of how to deal with infinities we have today are pretty decent.

...

"If the universe is expanding, where it is expanding into?"

Imagine every fraction, a/b, such that b isn't zero, and both a and b are positive counting numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, etc). You could understand how that describes a collection of stuff?

Now take that collection of stuff, and double every number in it.

What happens? Well, if you take any two things from the original set, look how far away they are from each other, and then look what happens when you double both -- you end up with them being twice as far away from each other!

In a sense, we expanded the collection of stuff. But we expanded it into itself. There was no "gap" at the end of the numbers that we expanded it into. Every number was doubled from a/b to 2a/b -- which was a number that was also in the collection!

And we left no room at the bottom. For every number c/d in the "after" collection of stuff, the number c/2d was in the "before" collection of stuff. And c/2d * 2 = c/d.

This trick was worked out in, I think the 17th century? I think it was a guy called Bolzano, but it might have been Weirstrauss (sorry if I got the spelling wrong).

In effect, if you have an infinitely long line, that line can expand by any factor into itself, without expanding into anything.

You can do similar tricks if you have a line that "loops back" on itself, like those mentioned above. The line can get "twice as long" without having anywhere else to expand into.

In short: theologists aren't mathematicians. So they sometimes get hung up on "infinity", and don't have the tools to play with it. The infinite universe "left no room for god!", so "knowing the universe is finite meant we can have god". As demonstrated, you can create an infinite universe in time and space that has plenty of room for god. Heck, there is plenty of theological room for an uncountable number of universes, if you want it.

03-14-2008, 04:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	If the universe is finite in time, then the question of "what comes before" could lead one to saying "god"? The misunderstanding that "just because X is infinite, there is no room for other things" probably comes from a lack of understanding of how to manipulate infinity. A 3 dimensional space and 4th dimension time universe of infinite extent in all directions can be embedded in, say, a Hilbert space which contains an infinite number of dimensions. Stick your god into the Hilbert space, and our universe takes up less "room" than a single dimensionless instant spec takes up in our universe. So... "the universe is infinite" doesn't really provide any problems creating a structure that contains the universe, and is much much larger. The understanding of how to deal with infinities we have today are pretty decent. ... "If the universe is expanding, where it is expanding into?" Imagine every fraction, a/b, such that b isn't zero, and both a and b are positive counting numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, etc). You could understand how that describes a collection of stuff? Now take that collection of stuff, and double every number in it. What happens? Well, if you take any two things from the original set, look how far away they are from each other, and then look what happens when you double both -- you end up with them being twice as far away from each other! In a sense, we expanded the collection of stuff. But we expanded it into itself. There was no "gap" at the end of the numbers that we expanded it into. Every number was doubled from a/b to 2a/b -- which was a number that was also in the collection! And we left no room at the bottom. For every number c/d in the "after" collection of stuff, the number c/2d was in the "before" collection of stuff. And c/2d * 2 = c/d. This trick was worked out in, I think the 17th century? I think it was a guy called Bolzano, but it might have been Weirstrauss (sorry if I got the spelling wrong). In effect, if you have an infinitely long line, that line can expand by any factor into itself, without expanding into anything. You can do similar tricks if you have a line that "loops back" on itself, like those mentioned above. The line can get "twice as long" without having anywhere else to expand into. In short: theologists aren't mathematicians. So they sometimes get hung up on "infinity", and don't have the tools to play with it. The infinite universe "left no room for god!", so "knowing the universe is finite meant we can have god". As demonstrated, you can create an infinite universe in time and space that has plenty of room for god. Heck, there is plenty of theological room for an uncountable number of universes, if you want it. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.