View Single Post
Old 02-04-2008, 12:56 PM   #161 (permalink)
levite
Minion of Joss
 
levite's Avatar
 
Location: The Windy City
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I suppose that depends on how one might look at it, though. The very real danger you face in Israel is often galvanized and reinforced by a particular (violent extremist) interpretation of the Qur'an. Yes, the attempts by Palestinians are about nationalism and rebellion, but strapping a bomb to one's chest would be difficult without the word of god to sustain you. I love democracy and freedom and all that jazz, but there is quite simply nothing in the world that would inspire me to do something like that. Had I been raised in the West Bank? Who knows? Had I been raised with the certain belief that Israelis were evil blah blah, and that god loves martyrs and wants me to do this? It's possible.
Well, again, without wishing to get bogged down in the details of the local conflict.... Yes, I would certainly agree that much of the terrorist threat that Jews in Israel face comes from what is currently being referred to as "radical Islamism." And although I freely admit, I have only a beginner's knowledge of Islam (read the Quran, some of the haditha, talked to some imams), it seems to me that there are many possibilities in Islam. It would never occur to me to blame all Islam for terrorism, although, to be frank, it does seem like quite a number of Islamic authorities are currently exploring what I would call very counterproductive theological notions. The things that have gone into making terrorism an option which some Palestinians appear to regard as viable are many, and I don't necessarily think it will be useful to get into discussing them here. But I will speculate that it seems to me that had there been, some time ago, a combination of more progressive Islamic theology being disseminated amongst Palestinian Arabs, along with more sustained efforts by numerous parties to relieve local social ills, and the emergence of a leadership with a more diplomatically-oriented nationalist agenda, terrorism would most likely not have seemed such an attractive option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
So a lack of education, in your opinion, leads to secularism. I'll buy that. What, then (speaking in broad terms), causes fundamentalism?
Well, lack of education leads to secularism amongst Jews. That much I believe. Whether the same holds true in other religious communities I cannot vouch for. And while I don't believe I really have an Answer for what causes fundamentalism, here is my personal speculation. I believe that most (but not all) fundamentalists are troubled by the idea of God, Life, and Death continuing to be, in some ways, gray areas. In its purest form, the purpose of halakhah (Jewish Law) is to retain the principles of Torah in an adaptive form, so that by evolving along with the societies in which Jews live, Torah never ceases to become practically relevant to Jews. But I think some people are uncomfortable with the responsibility of constant reinterpretation, because others are sure to disagree with them, and they themselves feel unsure of themselves, psychologically. I think certain personality types crave surety: they like black and white, which is simple, and one always knows where one stands. To live in a spectrum which includes shades of gray, or even colors, is frightening to such people, because they never feel confident that they are behaving acceptably, or living up to the expectations they perceive are placed upon them by others. Although I tend to shy away from diagnostic imagery, I might almost classify the fundamentalist mindset as having characteristics of lack of self-worth and self-esteem, insecurity, and perhaps a very, very mild tendency to obsessive-compulsiveness.

I think, especially in American Christianity, all of these problems are greatly reinforced by the social pressures associated with a Christian atmosphere in which, I am told, it is seen as undesirable to question, and bad behavior to take issue with the teachings of the pastor or priest. These things create a great pressure to conform, or at least keep very quiet about one's questions, doubts, and innovations. Thus, I think many fundamentalists remain fundamentalist at least in part out of fear of rejection or stigmatization by their communities.

Again, I don't believe this to be true of all fundamentalists, but I think it may be true for many.

Sometimes I think ignorance breeds fundamentalism. This, in my personal opinion, seems to be often true for Christians in America. I have met an astonishing plethora of Christians in America who are shockingly ignorant about their own religion (if I, a Jew, can tell, it must be a shocking lack of education), and comparatively poorly educated in general. In such cases, I think the lack of self-worth and insecurity components are greatly magnified. Tolerance and flexibility are the hallmarks of pluralism. But it can be very difficult to embrace pluralism if one feels oppressed, and thus wishes to maximize one's embrace of the doctrine of exclusivity in order to feel less so.

I have noted also that a number of the fundamentalist Christians I have met come from either the impoverished or the wealthy. I have certainly met middle-class fundamentalists, but I note that in my personal experience, they seem to be in the minority. To me this seems to indicate that the poor grasp onto fundamentalism in the hope that excessive righteousness will alleviate their suffering. The wealthy, to the contrary, seem to embrace a quasi-Calvinistic outlook, in which they embrace fundamentalism in what they perceive as acknowledgement or gratefulness for the divine Grace which they believe their financial and social success to represent. But in either case, what leaps out at me is that it is the very poor whose religious and secular education is often impeded by their circumstances; while the wealthy are often preoccupied with enjoying the fruits of their material success, and since they seem to take that wealth as a sign of grace anyhow, they are unmotivated to further their religious education.

I have no proof for any of this. It is just my speculation: it seems likely to me, but I make no claims to its actual accuracy. And I am fully aware that there are some fundamentalists whose motivations are entirely different, and who are explained by none of the hypotheses I have offered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I don't want to get into particulars, but you do see why one would find a vengeful god scary? The Noah (not Moses)'s Ark story speaks of genocide. I could name dozens of stories where god gets pissed and people die horrible deaths as a direct result. Yes, there are plenty of stories about the compassionate, loving god, but still there's an air of "...but don't get on His bad side!" to the whole thing that's hard to ignore. Do the Jewish oral traditions suggest that some of these stories are parables and not factual?
Well, not so much with the flood story. Some of the other incidents of people dying, yes. But also, keep in mind that in Jewish commentary and exegesis, there is nothing wrong with saying "this verse is troublesome, and it bothers me, and I am not able to adequately explain it yet." Many commentators say such things at various times, and there is no perception that this is unusual or improper. Text, in Jewish tradition, is there to be wrestled with. That is why, we say, our name is Yisra'el (Israel), which literally means, "He Who struggles with God." But one of the things that many commentators point out about the Flood story, for example, is that God immediately promises never to do such a thing again, and realizes it was really a bad idea. It can be hard to reconcile with a doctrine of divine omniscience, but there is an implication in Biblical theology, as we understand it, that relating to human beings is as much a learning experience for God as relating to God is a learning experience for humans. It actually ends up being kind of complicated, but to keep it short, there is at least an awareness of the issue in Jewish theology and exegetical commentary. The way it is dealt with so far has not primarily been to interpret the stories as parables or myths, although some have done so; it is to look for deeper interpretations, and this is often successful to one degree or another.

But I do absolutely understand that, if one were to read the Written Torah in isolation, it would doubtless be quite disconcerting in places, and tremendously obscure in others.
__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)
levite is offline  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360