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Originally posted by Lebell
I don't "worship" the Constitution, but I do think it is a pretty good document. So far you haven't proposed anything I better, nor do I care for the changes I suspect you would make.
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Proposed anything better? Do you really want me to draw up an alternative document? And what changes do you suspect I would make, aside from the whole gun thing? I'm inferring(quite possibly incorrectly) a somewhat ominous tone to that last statement that I don't understand.
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Originally posted by Lebell
Fine, but not tonight, I'm tired.
Ok you make a statement and don't want to debate it.
I'll just say that I think you're wrong then and leave it at that.
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Thus I said when you want to. I wasn't demanding it at the moment. If you want to have a debate about the mechanics of modern warfare, we can do it, but we've jacked this thread far enough already, and I was simply trying to keep the number of heads on this hydra to a manageable number.
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Originally posted by Lebell
Sorry if I did that, but you are doing the same, so if we can get past it that would be good.
I will say however that you were the one that said "50 dollars", indicating at least to me that "50 dollars" is not worth someone getting killed. I was just trying to find out what amount was worth someone getting killed.
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Yeah, let's not put words in each other's mouth. That would be good. I can understand why you thought 50 dollars was not worth someone getting killed. There is no amount of money worth killing somone. Don't take this to mean that I consider life sacred or that people shouldn't defend themselves or anything like that. Simply take it to mean that I would rather give up my wallet than kill another human being, and I hope that everyone would think the same way.
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Originally posted by Lebell
Umm, never said they didn't, but I see why you assumed that.
And yes, if my assailant has a bat, a knife, and/or is simply larger and physically stronger than I am, yes I need a gun.
Your arguement ignores the fact that victims are often not big strong men who are trained in martial arts, but are frequently
women, the disabled, and the old.
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You couldn't carry a knife, or a stungun, or some other nonlethal method of self-defense? Doesn't the same go for women(who, despite your lumping them in with disabled and elderly people, can be quite capable of defending themselves) or the elderly, or disabled people? I'm not arguing that a gun is a pretty effective defense. I'm arguing that it changes the whole tone of the situation and makes it more dangerous for the attacked as well as the attacker.
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Originally posted by Lebell
I reject fully your claim of "paranoia" and instead call it simple realism. Nor am I ignorant of all the factors that lead to the rise of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, etc. ad nauseum. But if you say I filter out everything but "what matters" to me, then I say you conveniently ignore the fact that during the rise of each of these dictatorships one of the first things they did was confiscate guns.
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Your rejection doesn't bother nor surprise me. I'm not ignoring the fact that these leaders confiscated guns, nor that they did it to prevent the people from rising up against the government. I think we both agree that the confiscation of guns did not enable the rise to power, but rather facilitate the holding of the power. Once again I come back to Britain and Canada, who have not, thus far, adopted any sort of totalitarian regime.
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Originally posted by Lebell
Technical aspects aside (there is no such thing as a steel-jacketed .44 hollowpoint), it seems that to be ultimately what your arguement boils down to. But if said criminal happens to be threatening me or my family in his law breaking, then YES, that would be my answer.
What would your answer be under such circumstances?
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I had a feeling as I was writing those specs that they would be wrong, and you would call me on it. Thanks for that pertinent bit of info. My argument is not a solution to crime. I am not proposing to end violent crime. I am proposing to curtail gun violence. End of story.
In your situation, where a criminal is threatening me or my family, I don't have the pat answer of "go for my concealed weapon." I'd say I'd have to act as the situation demanded, thinking on my feet, rather than relying on lead to help me.