|
Banned
|
Over on the http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...85#post2384285 thread, in post #993,
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by willravel
There is no evidence to suggest a "directed energy weapon". That damages the case to get questions answered more than any other single theory, including the Loose Change "Die Hard with a Vengeance" theory.
|
I thought it best to fully reply to willravel's comments on this thread. I want to stess that it is not neccessary or required, it is actually detrimental, when challenging the governments official account of what happened on 9/11 at the WTC complex in lower Manhattan, <h3>to offer any alternative opinion as to what did cause the collapse. Simply let the government prove its case....it's done a curiously insufficient job of doing it, so far....</h3>
It is best to simply point out, at least so far, that "the facts", or lack of them, compared to the government's account, simply speak for themselves. It is charitable, given the conflicting statements, lack of action, oft repeated postponement of findings, status of evidence, and in the case of structural steel debris from WTC 7, if there even is any, to say after nearly 6-1/2 years, that it is best to continue to wait for NIST to issue it's report on the WTC 7 collapse.
Waiting and watching are the best responses. It is up to the government to back it's assertions, and, as of today, it does not seem that they are doing a credible or competent job of it, does it?
Remember the government's investigative response to the mid-air explosion and crash into the ocean, south of the LI shore, of TWA Flt 800, in June, 1996. The debris from the airliner was recovered from the ocean, painstakingly reassembled in an LI aircraft hanger, studied for possible clues to the cause of the explosion and crash, and a report was issued, 18 months later:
Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/twa.800/reports/
NTSB releases TWA Flight 800 crash report
TWA/NTSB graphic
December 8, 1997
(CNN) -- The National Transportation Safety Board on Sunday released documents detailing its extensive, 17-month investigation into the crash of TWA Flight 800. The documents will serve as evidence for the week-long NTSB public hearing on the investigation which started Monday. CNN Interactive will provide a live Webcast of the hearing.
The documents include airplane maintenance records, reports on how the plane came apart, diagrams of where parts of the plane were found and information on the reconstruction of the wreckage. Select documents are available here. The remaining documents are available for download from CNN Interactive or the NTSB Web site......
|
Contrast the TWA Flt 800 investigation, the hurdles faced in recovering the airliner debris from the bottom of near shore ocean, the timeliness of the investigation and issuance of a report determining what happened, and the NIST investigation of the collapse of 47 story, WTC 7.
<h3>It was supposed to be important to engineers, to determine ASAP, what brought down WTC 7, the only "modern, steel-reinforced high-rise, had ever collapsed because of an uncontrolled fire".... declared a news report, six years ago:</h3>
Quote:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A9679C8B63
November 29, 2001
A NATION CHALLENGED: THE SITE; Engineers Have a Culprit in the Strange Collapse of 7 World Trade Center: Diesel Fuel
By JAMES GLANZ
Almost lost in the chaos of the collapse of the World Trade Center is a mystery that under normal circumstances would probably have captured the attention of the city and the world. That mystery is the collapse of a nearby 47-story, two-million-square-foot building seven hours after flaming debris from the towers rained down on it, igniting what became an out-of-control fire.
Engineers and other experts, who quickly came to understand how hurtling airplanes and burning jet fuel had helped bring down the main towers, were for weeks still stunned by what had happened to 7 World Trade Center. That building had housed, among other things, the mayor's emergency command bunker. It tumbled to its knees shortly after 5:20 on the ugly evening of Sept. 11.
The building had suffered mightily from the fire that raged in it, and it had been wounded by the flying beams falling off the towers. <h3>But experts said no building like it, a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise, had ever collapsed because of an uncontrolled fire, and engineers have been trying to figure out exactly what happened and whether they should be worried about other buildings like it around the country.</h3>
As engineers and scientists struggle to explain the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, they have begun considering whether a type of fuel that was inside the building all along created intensely hot fires like those in the towers: diesel fuel, thousands of gallons of it, intended to run electricity generators in a power failure.....
|
Quote:
http://www.construction.com/NewsCent.../20021209g.asp
NIST Not Ruling Anything Out on WTC Probe
enr.construction.com - 12/09/02
By Tom Ichniowski
About three months into a two-year investigation of the World Trade Center disaster, officials at the National Institute of Standards and Technology say it's too early to rule out any possible scenarios for what caused the buildings to fall.
At a Dec. 9 briefing, NIST Director Arden Bement said NIST feels more study is needed to determine which of the various hypotheses about the WTC collapses is "most probable." Bement adds, "We have concluded that it's too early to exclude any potential sequence of events between the aircrafts' impact and the collapse of the WTC towers."......
...........Bement made a request to the public and the media for photos or video images that could aid NIST's probe. More specifically, NIST is seeking images of WTC 7 and views from the south and west sides of the two WTC towers. Bement says, "In particular, there is a dearth of photos of the south side of WTC 7." That side, some have said, was hit by debris from WTC 1, which may have started the fires that led to WTC 7's collapse."....
|
Quote:
<a href="http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:Z6PqgHiSJQAJ:wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%2520Part%2520IIC%2520-%2520WTC%25207%2520Collapse%2520Final.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1">html link</a> or: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%...se%20Final.pdf
NIST Response to the World Trade Center Disaster
Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation
of
the World Trade Center Disaster
Part IIC – WTC 7 Collapse
Page 4
Schedule for Completion of Investigation
•
Major focus is on writing the Investigation reports; technical work is nearly complete.
•
The time required to write and review the comprehensive set of draft documents that
constitute final WTC investigation findings and recommendations is driving the release date of
the report.
•
The NIST reports include the overall investigation report for the WTC towers, 8 project
separate project reports, and 34 supporting technical reports, totaling some 10,000 pages.
This enormous task has taken NIST longer to accomplish than originally anticipated.
•
NIST is committed to putting accuracy, quality, and completeness ahead of schedule, taking
whatever time is required to do the job right.
•
NIST plans to release a draft of the final report for public comment in June 2005; public
comment period of about 6 weeks after release of the draft reports; NIST plans to release final
Investigation report in September 2005.
•
<h3>WTC 7 report will be issued as a supplement to the main report: draft planned for October
2005; final for December 2005.</h3>
•
Decoupling of WTC 7 report necessary to accommodate overlapping staffing demands for work
on WTC towers.
•
This change affects mainly the collapse analysis; other WTC 7 work will be reported with the
other Investigation reports.
•
WTC Conference: Putting Recommendations into Practice, September 2005....
|
Quote:
http://wtc.nist.gov/oct05NCSTAR1-3index.htm
Final Reports of the Federal Building and Fire
Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster
The analysis focused on the WTC 1 and WTC 2. <b>Although no steel was recovered from WTC 7,</b> a 47-story building that also collapsed on September 11, properties for steel used in its construction were estimated based on literature and contemporaneous documents.
|
Quote:
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster
Answers to Frequently Asked Questions...
...14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?
<h3>When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation.</h3>
After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, <h3>the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers.</h3> With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses.
<h3>It is anticipated that a draft report will be released by early 2007.....</h3>/
|
<h3>Maybe NIST could have "borrowed" some WTC 7 steel, from these guys:</h3>
Quote:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...rman-0112.html
An Initial Microstructural Analysis of A36 Steel from WTC Building 7
J.R. Barnett, R.R. Biederman, and R.D. Sisson, Jr.
A section of an A36 wide flange beam retrieved from the collapsed World Trade Center Building 7 was examined to determine changes in the steel microstructure as a result of the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001. This building was not one of the original buildings attacked but it indirectly suffered severe damage and eventually collapsed. While the exact location of this beam could not be determined, the unexpected erosion of the steel found in this beam warranted a study of microstructural changes that occurred in this steel. Examination of other sections in this beam is underway.
ANALYSIS
Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a “blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.
|
Quote:
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...AB0894DA404482
A Search for Clues In Towers' Collapse
Engineers Volunteer to Examine Steel Debris Taken to Scrapyards
New York Times, The (NY)
February 2, 2002
Author: JAMES GLANZ and ERIC LIPTON
....... Perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation involves extremely thin bits of steel collected from the trade towers and from 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story high rise that also collapsed for unknown reasons. The steel apparently melted away, but no fire in any of the buildings was believed to be hot enough to melt steel outright. A preliminary analysis of the steel at Worcester Polytechnic Institute using electron microscopes suggests that sulfur released during the fires -- no one knows from where -- may have combined with atoms in the steel to form compounds that melt at lower temperatures.............
|
Quote:
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformati...ing/steel.html
The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel
There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.
Materials science professors Ronald R. Biederman and Richard D. Sisson Jr. confirmed the presence of eutectic formations by examining steel samples under optical and scanning electron microscopes. A preliminary report was published in JOM, the journal of the Minerals, Metals & Materials Society. A more detailed analysis comprises Appendix C of the FEMA report. The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.
A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes...........
|
<h3>Or, maybe this guy still has some WTC 7 structural steel for NIST to examine:</h3>
Quote:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...53C1A9679C8B63
Scarred Steel Holds Clues, And Remedies
New York Times, The (NY)
October 2, 2001
Author: KENNETH CHANG
....Two Wednesdays ago, on his first night in the city to collect scientific data on the
collapsed World Trade Center buildings, Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl looked out the window of his
room at the Tribeca Grand Hotel and saw a flatbed truck parked outside.
By chance, trucks hauling steel from the trade center site paused there for an hour or two
before proceeding to the docks, where the steel was loaded onto barges.
Dr. Astaneh-Asl, a professor of structural engineering at the University of California at
Berkeley, changed out of his nightclothes and went downstairs for a closer look. Over the next
few nights, he cataloged 30 to 40 of the mighty beams and columns as trucks stopped in front of
the hotel.
"I've found quite a number of interesting items," he said......
...Dr. Astaneh-Asl's project is one of eight financed by the National Science Foundation to study
the World Trade Center disaster. He is also a member of a team assembled by the American Society
of Civil Engineers to investigate the trade center site, and the society is dispatching a team
to examine damage to the Pentagon.
<b>One piece Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw was a charred horizontal I-beam from 7 World Trade Center, a
47-story skyscraper that collapsed from fire eight hours after the attacks. The beam, so named
because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures.
Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized.</b>
Less clear was whether the beam had been charred after the collapse, as it lay in the pile of
burning rubble, or whether it had been engulfed in the fire that led to the building's collapse,
which would provide a more telling clue.
The answer lay in the beam's twisted shape. As weight pushed down, the center portion had
buckled outward.
"This tells me it buckled while it was attached to the column," not as it fell, Dr. Astaneh-Asl
said, adding, "It had burned first, then buckled."........
|
Quote:
WRECKAGE YIELDS CLUES FOR THE FUTURE OF HIGH-RISES ENGINEERS EXAMINE TWISTED STEEL DEBRIS
FROM THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS TO SAFETY AND CONSTRUCTION QUESTIONS TO GUIDE
PLANS FOR FUTURE BUILDINGS.
San Jose Mercury News (CA)
October 9, 2001
Author: GLENNDA CHUI, Mercury News
....The evidence was on the brink of being destroyed -- cut up for scrap and melted down to make
cars, appliances and the skeletons of more high-rises -- when he and others intervened last week
to save at least some of it......
''This is the first high-rise building I'm aware of, other than the towers themselves, that
collapsed as a result of fire,'' said Ronald Hamburger, a structural engineer with ABS
Consulting in Oakland who is on the team.
One of the support beams from Building 7 had been heated to such high temperatures that some of
the steel vaporized, said Astaneh-Asl. ''My interest, believe it or not, is higher for Building
7 than for the towers,'' he said, because it was a much more common design, used in perhaps a
dozen buildings in San Francisco and 200 nationwide. So any lessons that come out of its
collapse should be widely applicable......
|
Quote:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5AC0A9679C8B63
A NATION CHALLENGED: THE SITE
At the Site, Little Hope Of Uncovering Survivors
New York Times, The (NY)
September 19, 2001
Author: SUSAN SACHS
....Two buildings, 5 and 6 World Trade Center, have essentially been gutted by fire, said Peter
J. Davoren, a senior vice president of Turner Construction Company. <b>The rubble that once was 7
World Trade Center, a building believed to have been evacuated before it was hit by debris from
the collapse, is still burning.</b> By late yesterday, crews working from baskets suspended by
cranes over 7 World Trade Center were cutting lengths of twisted steel to be removed.....
|
Quote:
A NATION CHALLENGED: THE SITE
Engineers Have a Culprit in the Strange Collapse of 7 World Trade Center: Diesel Fuel
New York Times, The (NY)
November 29, 2001
Author: JAMES GLANZ
.....A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to
bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the
debris pile that appear to have been <b>partly evaporated</b> in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr.
Barnett said.....
|
Quote:
http://wtc.nist.gov/reports_october05.htm
Final Reports of the Federal Building and Fire
Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster
The final report “Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Tower” (NCSTAR 1) and the 42 companion reports. NIST NCSTAR 1: Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Tower
This is the final report on the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) investigation of the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers, conducted under the National Construction Safety Team Act.
...........<b>Extensive details are found in the 42 companion reports. (The final report on the collapse of WTC 7 will appear in a separate report.) Also in this report is a description of how NIST reached its conclusions.</b>
|
Quote:
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_.../appendixf.pdf
From page 39 of 68:
At present, there are seven samples from WTC 5, all in the GZ-series (see Attachment 1.2.9). These are
coupons that were removed at the WTC site and held by GMS, LLP. They were subsequently sent to
NIST once the Investigation officially began.
<b>No structural elements have been positively identified from WTC 7.</b> However, the columns were fabricated from conventional 36 ksi, 42 ksi, and 50 ksi steel that complied with ASTM specifications.
F.5 STRUCTURAL STEEL ELEMENTS OF SPECIAL IMPORTANCE
Of the 41 exterior column panels and 12 core columns positively identified, many were considered
especially important to this Investigation. Two major categories of steel are considered to be of special
value:
• Samples located in or around the floors impacted by the airplane
• Samples that can represent 1 of 14 grades of steel specified for the exterior columns, 1 of 4
grades of steel specified for the core columns, and 1 of the 2 grades of steel for the floor
trusses
from page 42 of 68:
F.6 SUMMARY
<b>NIST has 236 samples from the WTC buildings, the majority belonging to WTC 1 and WTC 2.</b> These
samples represent roughly 0.25 percent to 0.5 percent of the 200,000 tons of structural steel used in the
construction of the two towers. NIST believes the collection of steel from the WTC towers is sufficient
for the Investigation. This assertion is drawn from the following two statements. First, recovery of
material from locations in or near the impact and fire damaged regions of WTC 1 and WTC 2 was
remarkably good, including four exterior panels directly hit by the airplane and three core columns
located within these areas. Second, sufficient representative samples exist for all 14 grades of exterior
panel material, 2 grades of the core column material (which represents 99 percent, by total number, of
columns), and both grades for the floor truss material.
This report identifies the structural steel elements recovered from the WTC towers. Later reports will
determine the physical and mechanical properties of the steels and weld metal and the characteristics of
the metal, weldments, and connections from WTC buildings. Additionally, a damage assessment/failures
mode examination of the recovered structural steel elements will be performed. This information will be
utilized in an effort to determine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impact
of the aircraft.
|
Quote:
http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/16464/index6.html
March 27, 2006
<b>I asked Dr. Sunder about 7 WTC. Why was the fate of the building barely mentioned in the final report?
This was a matter of staffing and budget, Sunder said. He hoped to release something on 7 WTC by the end of the year.
NIST did have some “preliminary hypotheses” on 7 WTC, Dr. Sunder said. “We are studying the horizontal movement east to west, internal to the structure, on the fifth to seventh floors.”
Then Dr. Sunder paused. “But truthfully, I don’t really know. We’ve had trouble getting a handle on building No. 7.”</b>
|
....and here we are today: See Post # 176 Link:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=176
NIST claims still not knowing what caused WTC 7 to collapse, their working hypothesis has been revised to exclude building fires fueled by diesel or other petroleum based fuel...to a "working hypothesis of normal building fires"...these would be fires fueled solely on room contents, approx. 4 lbs. of coumbustible materials per square foot, with these combustibles exhausted at any given spot, after just 20 minutes of intense buring, at the "head of the fire", before the fire moves on.
NIST has again postponed release of their final, WTC 7 collapse report until August, 2008, fully seven years after WTC 7 collapsed, if NIST can meet this new deadline:
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACmeetingDec18_2007.htm
Last edited by host; 01-20-2008 at 01:26 PM..
|