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Originally Posted by Augi
@ filtherton:
Yeah we ought to start a club - we'll even have jackets!
SO I can't use observations, because the accuracy and validity of the observations comes into question. I can't use models because a model isn't fact, which I understand. I can't use statistics because that is just another model... So all I am really left with is a bunch of "hallucinations" I have "faith" in?
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No, you can use models and observations- they generally work quite well. I never said you couldn't. I'm a big fan of the science.
The only reason the subject came up is that it is fallacious to criticize theology based on notions of absolute provability when there exists a gap in the provability of science. It is another thing entirely to claim that you don't see evidence for the existence of god. The former overstates the scope of what science can say, the latter does not.
While i don't doubt my ability to reason, nor the ability of humanity to create and participate in some sort of collective reality, the fact remains that there are a great many fundamental things that are still unproven, and while it so far has been convenient and utile to treat reality as if these unproven aspects are irrelevant, the fact remains that they exist.
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I honestly can see your reasoning. I think it is wrong though and I haven't a clue how to put it. Let me just refer to any experience as a hallucination. "Why I do not see my trust in hallucinations as faith" - I can turn to my make-believe models that are based on these hallucinations and predict how the next hallucination will occur given a specific set of hallucinated conditions. In fact, others can turn to my hallucinated models and predict their hallucinations situated with similar hallucinated conditions as well. As far as I know, there is nothing to be done like that with God. Well you can hallucinate God... I don't... but I guess you could. Please no one attack this, it is sarcastic.
I [think that I] understand your position... but I do not make your conclusion between faith in God and my trust in perceived physical experience.
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You are working under the notion that i am equating the inherent uncertainties of existence with a rationale for believing in god. I am not. All i am attempting to point out is that it is fallacious to criticize theology for it's reliance on the unprovable whilst holding up science as some sort of alternative.
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Off Topic: Also I still think with what I know about science, if I throw an apple down some stable wormhole to the next universe were geometry is bent to hell, up is sideways, two dimensions of time, one of the universal forces is "screel", and only god would know what else... I think the apple won't last long to make applejuice. If I could demonstrate it, you know I would, and spend the rest of my days dropping apples into oblivion.
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I think that with all anyone knows about science, it would be just as scientific to predict that some sort of omnipotent diety would catch your apple.