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Originally Posted by Ustwo
Well if we went in as a conqueror I'm sure the same people complaining would be complaining we didn't go in as liberators, that they were ready to be free of Saddam and we used a heavy hand of oppression.
I think where I differ though is that we didn't have to be a colonial power. Germany and Japan we entered as conqueror's and left as liberators.
We did a poor job of securing Iraq, allowing to many malcontents to be let free and too many weapon caches left unguarded.
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I see what you are getting at here and I generally agree with you. The way I see it is the US was seen as a liberator for about two or three weeks. Then they shifted to becoming an occupier in the eyes of Iraqis.
This is part of the mismanagement that I've mentioned earlier. I don't think the US had a plan beyond getting Saddam out of power.
As I suggested elsewhere, nobody really knew before the invasion if Iraq was going to be Germany or Yugoslavia. It turned out that Iraq was more like Yugoslavia, a nation of disparate parts that was only held together by Saddam's iron fist. These parts were more interested in settling old grudges than moving forward with a new vision for a united Iraq.
It didn't help that the US administrators immediately forbid any former Baathist members from the new Iraqi admin (created problems in the transfer of power) and messed with Shite's desire to have a majority rule because of the fear of Iranian Shite influence, etc. They took a very shaky situation and shook it.
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
Our traditional allies were deeply involved, and while Canada was a great ally in WWII this isn't the same Canada today. Canada today is like inviting Poland, and I don't say that to be condescending, they just don't have the money, nor do I think the will. They pretty much were at their limit with Afghanistan. We really need not go into the France/Germany thing again, but 'allies' is a loose term.
I'll support your bad costly policy if you support mine eh? No, had the US supported Koyto, I don't think we would have had any more help. Honestly I don't think there is anything we could have done to make France or Germany actively help, both those countries internal Muslim issues and external money issues with Iraq would pretty much supersede anything. Plus I think you overvalue their importance for anything beyond show. We would still be footing most of the bill, we would still be doing most of the dying, it would just have a much better 'vibe'.
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I used Kyoto as an example but ultimately the Bush admin's "you are either with us or you are against us" declaration did more to rankle public opinion against them than anything. While it certainly played well at home, it was poorly received abroad. This is not the way to build a coalition.
The Bush Admin's diplomacy was deplorable and the US is paying the price in that the financial burden of the Iraq invasion must be almost entirely shouldered by the US. As I see it, the cost of the invasion most certainly would have been borne by the US. But the occupation, which was inevitable, could have been shared by many more.