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Sun Tzu · 11-24-2007, 11:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Strange Famous

And in the days of serfdom, the peasant was not forced to work the Lord's land... he was perfectly free to starve to death instead.

A very passionate, but exaggerated comparison. Not forced to work the Lord’s land? They weren’t allowed to leave the manor either- so it sounds as close to slavery as I would define it.

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Capitalism offers a choice marginally less stark, but fundamentally the same.

Capitalism offers this certain reality- the greater the reward, the greater the sacrifice. The level of what a person is willing to sacrifice (time, work, etc) is going to dictate what they create. Serfs and seignorialism had a caste system which a person was born into. Here in the United States anyone is capable of creating anything they choose to, it comes down to their level of intention.

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I would not speak of the American Revolution in terms of freedom personally... it did not create much freedom for the blakc population, who were enslaved; for the Indian people, who were butchered - did it?

The position of the slave in America was horrific even in comparison to the many crimes committed by the European colonialists; the murder of the Indian's carried about by the invaders a crime almost without equal in all human history. And what benefit for the working men and women of the nation, whether the gang master and the capitalist exploiter will pay some tax to a bigger exploiter, or keep it all for himself?

I agree with your point here. It is the great paradox this country was founded on, but I see you have your interpretation of history, I have mine. As I learned it, the colonies didn’t agree with the King’s vision what their economic future was going to be. So much, they were willing to go to war over it. Yes indeed, as any other point in history, and in virtually all regions; there were profiteers. There were also people of honor that gave thought about the generations that would follow them. There was a division between those that were pro-slavery and those against it. The side against it knew they would never beat England without being unified with the slavers. They acknowledged the reality that the slave issue was a fight that would be fought in the future. They were confident enough the verbiage of the Declaration would set the stage for a future constitutional amendment that would ultimately set them free. Have you ever heard of picking your battles?

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The position of the slave in America was horrific even in comparison to the many crimes committed by the European colonialists

I don’t understand, where did the colonists originate from? What crimes are you comparing to slavery? (which was a crime).

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The American Revolution was simply one band of exploiters fighting another band... the common people merely were forced to die for the rich.

The common people? What are you talking about? The “common people” were the ones fighting the King. Untrained militias went against a well equipped army for reasons that were clearly obvious, if you have another historical perspective please provide a link to it, I would be very interested to research it.

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the murder of the Indian's carried about by the invaders a crime almost without equal in all human history.

Without equal? I'm not going to get into that even though I disagree. As far as what happend to the Indians, there is really no arguing that. The Native Americans were shafted. America has done actions (usually by a small group influencing political policy that was not in the best interest of the US) that are not very nice. So have allot of countries. I don’t agree with how the Indians were treated. At this point all I can do is acknowledge that, and accept that I was born in a country known as the United States. Hopefully all anyone can do is do their part to strive for the global mindset that humanity as a whole has progressed from then, and such actions are not acceptable in the human community. The way the British handled the Palestine issue is going to have far more implications in the years to come.

It still happens, but not all of us agree with it. Blemishes of the past have little to do with 21st century free enterprise, unless there is private influence corrupting national policy. That I disagree with, I believe it is possible for one to exist without the other.

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And what benefit for the working men and women of the nation, whether the gang master and the capitalist exploiter will pay some tax to a bigger exploiter, or keep it all for himself?

Believe me, I think there is a small group of elite that have big plans and are currently implementing them, just as they have done for hundreds of years. I call it the parasitic society. If you want any clarification of how deeply I think this conspiracy goes, go over the to the Tilted Paranoia area and enter the Endgame thread. That sums up what my views on that are. I don’t think the answer to this is socialism.

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The American Revolution was meaningless to the ordinary citizen, other than a symbolic thing.

It may seem this way to some that observe our evolution. It may also seem that some of our leaders haven’t taken any wisdom from lessons that should have been learned studying the history of other empires, but I disagree with this statement on so many levels that it would turn into a thread jack to list them. I will just leave it as you being entitled to your opinion.

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The Working People of the world have no nation, they are one people - united against the master class and the exploiter in cause, and divided by those exploiters in order to maintain the misery of the people.

This sounds very similar to slogans that were being promoted by the Germans just prior to WWII.

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