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Originally Posted by JinnKai
I get it, really clearly. Your (and the quoted OP) position in simple form is that "Well, because adults are stupid and easily biased and children generally vote the same way their parents did when they grow up, why not let children vote?"
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Not really. I honestly think that getting teens to vote would provide them reason to pay attention in civics and government courses, considering it's they that might help decide in major issues that effect them. Imagine if teens were able to vote against Bush to end the war so they could join the military without having to go to Iraq. Wouldn't that be spectacular? Or, something I've mentioned above, imagine what public schools would look like if kids could allocate funds via voting so that their textbooks don't talk about a moon landing in the future tense and talk about the women's rights movement to be a success instead of a fad. Heaven forbid that kids get the opportunity to effect the world in which they live and learn some responsibility.
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Originally Posted by JinnKai
I get it. I really do. I understand your premise, but I do not agree that it follows. It's an argumentum ad populum, and it's really a problem becuase you're basically saying that it's bad, but since it's bad already, what harm will be done by introducing another bad thing?
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It's not bad that every adult (sans convicts) citizen can vote. It's a good thing. It allows the concerns of the many to be addressed instead of the few. If only people who had an IQ over 130 could vote or only people who got over a B in government in high school could vote, how would the poor or downtrodden defend themselves? The point is that because it's right to allow every adult to vote because they're citizens, it should be right to allow minors to vote. It's a positive thing. The thing is that people keep bringing up exclusion points that are just as applicable to adults. "If they let kids vote, they'd vote in Hillary Duff" could be replaced with "If they let adults vote, they'd vote in George Cloony". It really doesn't make any sense. Hillary Duff isn't over 35, and there's no way she could get on any ticket.
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Originally Posted by JinnKai
Do you honestly believe that increasing the number of uninformed and strongly biased voters will HELP the voting pool? You acknowledge that there is a dramatic problem with under education and bias, and then you posit that we should ADD undereducated and biased MINORS to the pool of potential voters?
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Undereducated? They're learning in school now what most voters learned years ago and have since forgotten. I'd say that they could potentially be more informed than their adult counterparts. I was better to prepared to vote at 16 than both my parents (one of whom actually voted for Bush, and has since been disowned).
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Originally Posted by JinnKai
This premise is unsourced, and for good reason. How does he know this? How is "greater autonomy and responsibility" defined? How much autonomy do they need before they're less likely to be influenced by adults? How do we know they'd even be more likely? Has he done a study on this? Has anyone? Otherwise, it's a conclusion in absense of fact.
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I believe it's from a book. Influence from adults will always be there to a point, but can you really look back at when you were 16 and 17 and say you'd vote for whomever your parents said? I mean some kids are just as likely to vote against what their parents say out of spite as a part of their individuation process (learning to become an individual often means rebellion against one's parents).
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Originally Posted by JinnKai
How does he know this? This is an argument about the future, and about a situation which has never occured. How do we know that coercion would less likely? Or that it would be frowned upon? For this to be true we have to make a lot of assumptions about the "good" nature of humanity, and believe that it holds true always, particularly in politics, where lots of money and lots of ego are involved. And even if it were "frowned upon," how does this prevent it from occuring? Having sex before marriage is "frowned upon" by a lot of people, but it still fucking (pun intended) happens.
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He's a psychologist, so the expertise comes into play.
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Originally Posted by JinnKai
Children are NOT good at keeping secrets, especially from their parents. It doesn't "ensure" anything, and it doesn't mean that "no adult" could discover the choice. I doubt many children would not tell their parent who they voted for when threatened with "no supper" or being grounded for a week.
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Children are fantastic at keeping secrets, especially from their parents. Short of admission, the parent cannot get the information any more than I can go online and find who you voted for in 2004. I have no clue where you get the idea that children are poor liars, and more so I have no clue as to why you'd think that so many parents would try to force their child to vote for someone. Why do you think the average parent would do that when the average parent doesn't even vote? Total turnout in the US 2004 elections was 123,535,883. There were 221,285,099 voting age adult citizens in the US in 2004.
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Originally Posted by JinnKai
The difference between autonomous adults (no matter how ignorant you think they are [I agree]) and children is that our government cannot suspend the following rights:
Unlawful search
Unlawful detain
False imprisonment
Denial of due process
Denial of free speech
Denial of ...
The list goes on.
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Kids can't be unlawfully anything because "unlawful" means against the law. Children cannot be denied due process, cannot be falsely imprisoned, and in many cases can be covered by free speech and religion, though they should be covered completely.
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Originally Posted by JinnKai
The government can't, but parents are allowed to do just about whatever they want to control their children, short of physical abuse. It's a long list. And I think it's a good thing, by the way. Without these controls, there would be a general neutering of parental ability.
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