SecretMethod70

The nice thing about this reply is that I don't even need to waste time addressing the stuff with evolution, all because of one little sentence: "gravity is fact." Scientifically, gravity is a theory. Have you seen gravity? You've seen its effects, but have you seen gravity? Gravitons? They're theorized, but they've never been seen. Perhaps it's a force...but we can't see forces. Which is the reason electromagnetism is also classified as a theory. A scientific theory is not the same as a hypothesis, which is what you seem to think it means. A hypothesis is, essentially, an educated idea of how something works. A theory, on the other hand, is one step before observed fact (of which there are few). Wikipedia sums this one up pretty well (emphasis mine): "A theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations which is predictive, logical and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory." (And, yes, this means that "string theory" is a misnomer because, scientifically, it is not really a theory but closer to a hypothesis.) Point is, you've only confirmed that you don't understand how the scientific method works. This isn't bad - a lot of people don't understand the difference between a theory in scientific terms and a theory in laymen's terms - but it makes a difference if you're going to be making arguments about what science does and does not know, especially if your entire opinion is based on the fact it's called the "theory of evolution." That homo sapiens is the result of evolution, branched off of a common ancestor with other great apes, is as much an understood fact as the existence of gravity. And, just like we don't know exactly how gravity works - is it a force or is it a particle? - we don't have an exact understanding of how evolution works. That said, the whole "missing link" thing is completely irrelevant. Evolution works far too gradually for there to be any such thing. Again, Wikipedia explains this misconception fairly well and concisely (thank god science nerds tend to be geeks too! ).

Irrelevant. No one here has made any claims that you shouldn't be allowed to have your rock altar or anything like that. Discussing your beliefs on an internet forum isn't worshipping, and you should have no expectation of not having to interact with people who disagree with you or being asked to defend your beliefs.

It's too easy to just look up now, but you already answered just one question which shows that however knowledgeable you may have been in the past regarding science, you've clearly forgotten some of the fundamentals. That question: do protons repel neutrons? Your answer, of course, was that they do. They do not, and as I pointed out that's a very basic element of scientific understanding. In fact, I can't remember exactly, but I think I learned it around 5th grade. Hell, the answer is even in their names. Now, again, a lot of people don't remember things like that, but it makes a difference when you're trying to claim an understanding of what science does and does not know, and how strong the claims it makes are. And not only did you get that question wrong, you went on to claim above average knowledge in nuclear matters, which only makes your error even more significant.

Why are we going through this again. People have provided cons. They're looking for people to provide pros. But, unless I'm reading this wrong, you are looking for exactly what I thought you're looking for: basically, for people to compile a list of opinions in this thread and then let some imaginary "other" reader make a decision based on those opinions. I hate to break it to you, but the purpose of a discussion forum is to have discussions with the people who are participating here, not some imaginary other reader who we're trying to convince and put on a debate show for. Discussion forums aren't debate panels with audiences, where each side is vying to win the audience's loyalty.

Honestly, I find myself participating in threads like these because ignorance bothers me, and I don't mean that in the sense of feeling superior. What I mean is that the human race has advanced so much over the past 100 years, and will advance so much more over the next 100. We've put people on the moon, we've sent robots to Mars, we've taken pictures of the farthest reaches of our galaxy. We've learned to split the atom and, literally, harness the power of the sun. We've created a world wide web which allows us to connect with almost anyone from around the world in mere seconds. We've learned about some of the most fundamental building blocks of the universe, and continue to learn more. We've figured out, generally speaking, how we slowly came into being as humans from the basic life that originated on this planet. Yet...there are still people who believe that a 4 leaf clover, or a penny from their birth year, or special underwear will bring them luck. There are still people, especially in America (when compared to other developed and sometimes not-so-developed countries), who lack a sufficient understanding of science and its relationship to the world around them in order to understand that just because a book they find special in their lives says the universe was created in 6 days, that doesn't make it true. These things sadden me. I see the amazing potential of humanity, and then I'm reminded of just how much further we could be if we didn't have to waste time still trying to convince otherwise intelligent people that dinosaurs and humans did not live at the same time. I imagine how much more advancement we could make if those otherwise intelligent people could redirect the energy they currently spend on their biblical literalism, or superstition, and instead put it towards any of the other things going on right now that will lead to the next significant development. Frankly, I think I'm over-optimistic regarding other people much of the time. I come here, and make long posts, and repeat the same things over and over (I don't know how many times I've bothered to point out the "theory" issue on this site), because, somewhere in my head, I feel like eventually people will "get it." I know from experience that this is almost never true. Yet, I still try, because like someone in a bad relationship I come back and think..."maybe this time something will sink in." I, frankly, probably give people too much credit to expect that they will see evidence, digest it, and either provide counter-evidence or change their mind accordingly. I should know by now that anyone who thinks in that manner already doesn't believe these things in most cases. Anyway, my point is that I come into these threads and I post because I care about the direction in which humanity is moving, not out of any need to feel superior. If I wanted to feel superior on this site, I'm in a pretty good position to do so without spending so much time and energy in a thread like this, but that's not why I'm here. I defer to Martin Luther King, Jr.: "Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality."


In principle, I agree with you. But all "beliefs" are not created equal. Someone can believe in anything, but it doesn't change the reality of the world we live in. Like Ustwo said, believing in things which evidence exists against "embraces a lack of critical thinking on the part of the individual which I think is unhealthy. There are other ways to learn to deal with life's problems."

Again with "the people reading." Who are these people, if not the participants in this thread? What is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to interact with the people doing the discussing. I don't care about the lurkers who are reading right now. I care about the people who are actively participating. They're the ones I'm interacting with. If I wanted to proselytize to lurkers, I'd go and create a blog.

Having been here since just about the beginning, I can confidently say that the general user attitude toward superstitious topics hasn't changed. The only difference is that now there's a whole forum for people to make threads on such things, and therefore many more threads for the average TFP user to come in and debunk

We're all ignorant about something. Some people are incapable of getting a date. Others stay in abusive relationships. Still others believe that stars alter their personality. Pointing out that ignorance isn't an attack when an effort is made to fill it with valid information, and for the most part I've seen that done here. People have provided links to studies and various other things. That's far different from "you're stupid!"

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling