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Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
Sorry, but you've just proven you know very little about some of the basics of science. The first is just plain wrong, and the second shows a severe misunderstanding of the scientific method and, specifically, what a scientific theory is. Just as one can't reasonably choose not to believe in the theory of gravity, it is equally unreasonable not to believe in the theory of evolution. In both cases, not believing in it (regardless of what you think when it comes to the working details) is simply wrong, plain and simple.
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So evolution has been PROVEN to be right? We have found the missing link? There is incontrovertible proof that we evolved from Primordial soup and through many differing species each one growing farther along. There's proof of that? If not, then I think I know exactly what I was talking about.
I'm not talking about how we have evolved since, developing antibodies within ourselves to fight bacteria or how we have evolved intelligently and creatively throughout time growing as a species.
No, that is pretty much fact, now was it physical environmental or sociological environmental factors, is the question. I would argue IF solely physical then you have a better argument for Evolution. IF solely sociological, based on the fact up until the "age of enlightenment" religion was the predominant factor in ALL societies, then it was religion that evolved man. However, I believe it was a combination of both and thus stating it was directly a result of one or the other is IMHO only recognizing the factors YOU wish to. Thus, since no one truly knows or will ever be able to prove, we'll never know the truth.
Gravity is fact.
The point I replied to was how schools are being dictated to teach either Evolution theory (man evolved) or the theory of creationism. BOTH ARE THEORY, neither CAN BE PROVEN.
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You can't go around claiming people fall under the same umbrella as you just because you'd like them to. You'll have a hard time finding a single Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, scientist, or atheist who is interested in being associated in any way with the term paganism. Stop trying to claim that they are pagans. You can point out the technical difference between paganism and neo-paganism all you want, but I think you're intelligent enough to know that pretty much everyone here who ever refers to "pagans" is really referring to neo-pagans. (And we've already gone over this in another thread.)
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OK, doesn't change the fact that Neo-Pagans or Wiccans or any group has the right to be disparaged and have their religion belittled or not represented. The whole argument there was about freedom of worshipping how you want. I don't agree with special needs for each religion, the Constitution doesn't guarantee that.... but it does guarantee the right to worship and as long as it hurts no one.... who are you to say "no".
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Congratulations. Though, I have to wonder how you scored that high when you apparently don't know the most basic workings of an atom that are taught in elementary school science. Either the test had more to do with procedures than science, or I'm genuinely concerned for the state of our nuclear program.
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Really? You are more than welcome to take the USTwo challenge and give me a test if you so desire and are so sure I am not all that intelligent. Just remember, I'll give you a test also.
Feel free to open the thread, we'll hash out how, a neutral party and see.
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As far as the "Law of Attraction" is concerned, it is true that hostility breeds hostility. On the other hand, sometimes something is just wrong, and there are only so many ways to approach it. Debating the existence of god is entirely different from debating astrology, because one can only speak in terms of the probability that god exists. There is no way to test the question. Astrology, on the other hand, can and has been tested, and it has failed. Now, saying that something makes you feel good, but simultaneously recognizing that it has no actual basis in reality is one thing (I think that's what roachboy thinks you're arguing, but I haven't seen anything to convince me of that). I'm all for respecting that - do whatever you damn well please. But making public claims about something that can be and has been refuted is not something that will typically go unchallenged.
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Again, to me this has become far more about being open minded and respectful of others beliefs than Astrology.
I see people making claims all day... 0 down, 0 payments for a year 0 interest for 5 years....... comes to mind. I choose to ignore claims like that, I may tell a friend who buys into it to read the fine print, but overall, I don't see any reason to fight it, argue against it and give it my time. I have more pressing things.
I could argue why all the protestations and carrying on over something you think is phony?
Do you really think you're helping anyone by belittling people, mocking their faiths and beliefs?
Why are you so against having an intelligent, respectful discussion with each side giving their pros and cons and then letting others decide?
Psychologically, people do this for one of 2 basic reasons: they desire to put themselves above the other side either for ego, intellectual or in some cases social gains.... or they do so because they themselves are that insecure in their own beliefs they have to try to make others insecure in theirs.
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The argument that keeps being made regarding science amounts to "science isn't perfect, so why should we believe it?" This has already been addressed more than once, but what the hell, let's try again. I'm lazy, so I'll just plagiarize myself. Two simple thought experiments show the flaw in this logic: 1) The argument will continue to be made so long as science does not say what you want it to say, but then what happens if one day it does? I don't believe you would continue not to accept it - rather, you'd point to it as validation for what you've been saying all along. 2) The only logical conclusion to be made from arguing that current scientific observations shouldn't be given weight because past observations were proven incorrect in some capacity is to say that no scientific observations should be given weight whatsoever, because the past cannot be changed and the future is always unknowable. Not knowing everything is not an excuse to act like we know nothing.
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No did you truly read what I wrote? I think you need to reread what I wrote.
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It seems to me that you're more interested in talking at one another than talking with people. You'd like to state your beliefs, have other people state their beliefs in a way which has the least friction with your own, and then...I don't know what, because there's nothing of any benefit that can come from that sort of interaction. I'll say it again, if you're not willing to have your beliefs challenged, don't talk about them, and especially not on a public discussion forum. Not all things can mutually exist, and a discussion between open-minded individuals is one in which both sides are open to the possibility of rejecting the entirety of their previously held thoughts, based on new arguments and evidence. In the case of this thread, evidence has been provided in opposition to astrology, and there are only a few truly open-minded, "willing to learn from other people" reactions: provide counter-evidence that is at least almost equally compelling as the evidence given, or discard your old thoughts in favor of those supported by the newly provided evidence.
Of course, you say you don't even believe in astrology, so I have to wonder why you're really even bothering in this thread. Then again, you also claim that you no longer "have to win arguments" and that you now simply speak your mind and don't care whether people walk away thinking they're right. Yet, you've participated in this thread more than anyone else in the past 2 days...that doesn't strike me as someone who doesn't care whether or not they "win the argument."
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I have answered posts directed at me, yes.
I don't really follow astrology, not my bag, but I will take a stand for someone's right to believe it. And as I stated:
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I came to this thread because it seemed there were attacks on people's beliefs. I saw someone simply ask what others thought. It went from someone asking a simple question to attacking people who believe in it. This was done under the "Science is all powerful and there is nothing more powerful" guise.
I opened it up to all metaphysical, supernatural, religious, etc beliefs because the same arguments are used for them all.
I added what I felt I could and needed to and from there it grew. Threads evolve.
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I don't have to win arguments. But I will respond to people talking to me, quoting me and trying to condemn me. I will also call out people who are trying to belittle another's beliefs.
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Unless you're being true to and standing up for what has been shown to be true (or at least more true than anything else we know) through science?
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Again, where did I once belittle science in anyway? I said there were small minded people on BOTH sides who refuse to acknowledge that their are beliefs different than theirs and instead of belittling them, why not try to discuss, educate and respect each other's views?
In the end it's a microcosm of what society deals with. I am simply showing how tempers flare negativity begat further negativity, name calling, talking down to, trying to elevate self over others happens simply because people refuse to accept another's right to believe in what they want and to treat that person and belief with respect.
I wonder how much safer and how far this world would truly advance if everyone just talked to one another with respect.
In a case like this thread it all would have been over if Wheel had gotten her answer and the debunkers stated their side and let the people reading decide what to believe for themselves. Instead of belittling, degrading and basically treating anyone who supported it in anyway with disrespect and as though they were charlatans, fakes, frauds or stupid.
In the end, it's a statement on TFP in general. When I came in ging on 4 years ago, discussions like this were welcomed and people weren't attacked for their beliefs. People conversed and showed respect for each other... teaching and learning from each other. (Except Politics that has always been a war zone... but I think that's part of the fun in there.)
Now we see a thread like this where a simple, innocent question from someone who was interested in a subject enough to ask members what they thought turned into a warzone, disrespecting others beliefs, attacking others intelligences and just negative.
Not sure I like this place anymore.... used to be fun, now everyone wants blood. Not exactly sure that's what I want in a message board, at least non-political messages (except sports... always have to talk smack in sports... that's the fun part.)