Got to run to school now
note to self: continue at the top of the third page (post 201)
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Originally Posted by willravel
This thread is showing me that a lot of people out there don't understand protesters at all, and it's really frustrating. I'm 100% serious.
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I understand them; I've been one. I understand that taking drastic action is sometimes justifiable, and I also understand that taking drastic action can result in harm or death to the actor. Piracy in sovereign waters is one of those actions that can result in serious harm, and those engaging in piracy as a form of protest ought to expect that the target of such action is legally permitted to use lethal force against the perpetrators.
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The difference, of course, is that the Catholic Church, Muslims, and Congress never have suggested, as whole organizations, that they are non-violent, and also they have a history of being responsible for and directly connected to violence. Neither of those is true for GreenPeace.
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Announcing that you are a member of Greenpeace does not mean that you are a member. A group intent on destroying or stealing cargo can easily announce that they are with Greenpeace, then board the ship and act in a way highly inconsistent with Greenpeace's philosophy after putting the crew at ease. Boarding a ship is an act of piracy regardless of intent. If I were on board a ship that was subjected to an act of piracy after intent to peacefully protest was announced, I would assume a worst case scenario was occurring and respond accordingly.
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It's based on precedence. GreenPeace has never been violent. Ever. In over 30 years and hundreds or possibly thousands of actions, not once has a GreenPeace member become violent. They've had violence done against them, of course. So, by precedence, the tanker crew is actually more likely to become violent than the protesters.
Sure, it's not completely impossible for a member of GreenPeace to become violent, but is so unlikely based on reality that planning for or expecting it is unreasonable. A Buddhist monk could become violent, too, but are you going to wear body armor into a monastery? Shit no. Why? It's completely unreasonable.
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The tanker crew is more likely to become violent if we see with 20/20 hindsight that it was, in fact, Greenpeace taking action. It is not safe to assume that a group that claims to be Greenpeace commits an act of piracy in violation of international law is going to be completely nonviolent after boarding the ship just because they said so.
The second part is a flawed analogy. Greenpeace clothing is not available exclusively to members. There is no way to stop a terrorist group from joining Greenpeace, loading up on Greenpeace merchandise, disguising themselves as peaceful protesters, and carrying out a terrorist attack, just like insurgents in Iraq who steal Iraqi police uniforms or join the Iraqi police with the intent of carrying out attacks in disguise.
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Originally Posted by mixedmedia
I am referring to anyone on this thread who advocates for the position that these people should have been shot. And those who believe that any protest that interferes with 'trade' is not legitimate.
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Boarding a ship in sovereign waters is piracy, even if the group claims to be a peaceful one. Boarding a ship with materials that can be used as weapons is threatening. I do not consider piracy a means of peaceful protest and don't understand how anyone could defend it as such unless they are allowing their preconceived notions of Greenpeace to cloud their judgment.
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Originally Posted by mixedmedia
Everybody go back and look at the pictures of these and imagine shooting them...here I'll make it easy for you, which ones would you shoot first, these guys?
or maybe her?
Sounds like a bunch of big fucking talk to me.
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Whichever of them came over the rail first, plus any that were stupid enough to try after the first. If they got on board and stopped immediately when I pointed a gun at them, I would demand that they drop anything that could be used as a weapon, and detain them until they could be turned over to the proper authorities.