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Originally Posted by aceventura3
This is one reason why I am confused by members of the Democratic Party - as a policy decision going forward, if you think the war was unjust, why would you want to leave before fixing what we created. They seem to want to blame Bush without taking any responsibility, even though they voted for the use of military force and have continually authorized funding and endorsed Bush's plans.
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ace.....you continue to perpetuate two false characterizations about the Democrats.
One, that they voted for the resolution authorizing use of force and subsequent bills for continued funding. In fact, the majority of Democrats voted for neither.
Two, that the Democrats want to leave without fixing what we created. Every Democratic alternative to the failed Bush policy and surge has components that include an Arab "stabilization force" to replace our troops as we drawn down, a real emphasis on diplomacy to address the political stalemate - with the active participation of Saudi Arabia and Egypt (who have influence with the Sunnis) and Iran (who as influence with the Shiias) as well as neighbors Syria and Jordan .
Can you point to any diplomatic effort by Bush to deal with the failed political system or to involve the Arab powers in the Middle East?
Some Democratic proposals also include greater humanitarian and financial assistance to respond to the devastation caused by the sectarian violence and displacement that our invasion unleashed and most maintain a US presence to focus on al Queda and border security.
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Originally Posted by aceventura3
I have looked. I have not found the actual report, all I found was commentary or second hand reporting on the report. Nor have I found the methodology used to reach the conclusion reached. I don't give special credibility simply based on "title", I prefer raw data and understanding the assumptions and the methodology others use to reach their conclusions.
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The "declassified key judgments" of the NIEs are readily available on the Director of National Intelligence website (dni.gov). Among the findings from the one I referenced in previous posts:
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The Iraq conflict has become the —cause celebre“ for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carryon the fight.
We assess that the underlying factors fueling the spread of the movement outweigh its vulnerabilities and are likely to do so for the duration of the timeframe of this Estimate.
• Four underlying factors are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement: (1)Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness; (2) the Iraq —jihad;“ (3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and (4) pervasive anti-US sentiment among most Muslims–all of which jihadists exploit.
http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/De..._Judgments.pdf
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Unlike the NIE on pre-war WMDs in which there were dissenting opinions, there are no such dissenting opinions presented in the declassified key judgments of this NIE.
One can reasonably conclude that our invasion of Iraq has contributed to the spread of the jihadist movement worldwide.
I am sorry the level of detail on the methodology and the raw data of the NIE is classified. If you dont want to accept these conclusions as any better than your own judgments, then there is nothing more I can add.