So, can I get a clear, unequivocal statement from you that there are a minority of Muslims in the world who, by virtue not of their
religion but by virtue (or vice?) of their own twisted version of it (combined with a number of other complex factors, including cultural and economic ones), commit murder? If you agree with that, then I have no problem with that statement.
You have not answered Baraka_Guru's question about your interpretation of Muslim law, which would be helpful for this discussion.
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Originally Posted by Fast Forward
I'm banking on you being honest enough to know/admit that there is a huge difference between mass ”crusades” carried out by Christians, Moslems, etc. and individual ”executions”.
Furthermore, I'm also banking on your intelligence to see that the subject is ”Honour Killings” - not attrocities committed by Irish Catholics upon Irish Protestants – Irish Protestants committed upon Irish Cahtolics – Moslems committed upon Hindus – Hindus committed upon Moslems – Moslems committed upon Sihks – Sihks committed upon Moslems – Tutsies committed upon Hutus – Hutus committed upon Tutises – Serbs commited upon Bosnians – Bosnians committed upon Serbs – Americans committed upon Cubans – Americans committed upon Iraqis – Americans committed upon Vietnamese – Americans committed upon Iranians – Americans committed upon Nicaraguans – White Americans committed upon Black Americans – etc. etc. etc.
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Thing is, you actually brought up the Catholic church, in saying that the Pope had never condoned or demanded murder on earth. You also related this to a call for a Fatwa, which can be considered a form of mass "crusade," and was off the topic of honor killing. I addressed your comment and asked you to read the Papal Bull of Urban II, which began the Crusades. And call them crusades or executions, but people died in the name of a religious figure calling for them to be killed, with the reward of eternal glory. That's Christian history 101. Can't you admit that Christians have a hellish, bloody history of murder and execution in the name of their God on their hands?
And in fact, since you point out several ethnic groups here, the subject is honor killings by Pakistanis, not Arabs or Somalis, so why did you bring those up in the first place, if we're indeed being so specific?
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Originally Posted by Fast Forward
I have been in about 20 Moslem countries. The majority being Arab countries. Furthermore, I live in a predominantely Moslem part of my city. I am a minority in my own town. I am a minority in my own country, you could say. I will be moving to another part of city on the 1st. of October because after 8 years of living in such an invironment, I 've had more than I can take.
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And what country was that again, for the 4th time? We call this "white flight" in American sociological studies. I'm not surprised that it's happening in Europe... but will it really make the problem better, or make it worse? I can tell you that from observing the American ghettos, at least, it definitely doesn't improve things.
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Originally Posted by Fast Forward
Believe me that I can tell you things that me and my family have had to endure that you would think are untrue. For example, my daughter is pelted with stones (by Arabs and Somalis) whenever she is seen with her boyfriend in our neighbourhood. Why, you may ask? Because she walks with him ”hand in hand”. But isn't this my country – my culture?
Worst of all (and the deciding factor in me taking my family out of this part of the city) is the ”Honour Killing” comitted upon my daughter's classmate. Her family (father, brother, and uncle) slit her throat while she was sleeping in her bed because she was ”sweet” on a local boy – a non-Moslem. Apparently, she didn't even get around to tasting ”the goods” with her boyfriend. It is enough for the family that there was a possibility of her eventually ”doing it” with him. The girl was round to our house many times to listen to my daughter's music CD's and she seemed like a nice girl, coping with the difficulities of her Moslem background yet enjoying the freedom of expression allotted to life in Europe.
My daughter is still going to therapy because of her friend's death. She now clings to me and my wife and she's afraid to go out with her friends after school. She's becoming a recluse at the age of 14 and we don't know how to help her.
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Now, you know what, if you had started your posts here with the last 3 paragraphs, I would have given you a lot more credit from the get-go. You have reasons for your opinions. But you didn't present those from the beginning... you just called people baboons, which will earn no one's respect on this forum. Honest, reality-based experiences, however, will earn respect. I'm sorry for what your daughter is going through.
But the big picture is much more complicated... looking at the history of European and African (and Asian, South American, pick your developing country) politics and economics helps us get some understanding on how the current system came to be. International population movement didn't just spring up out of nowhere. Conditions were created to induce people to move away from their homes, and the only way you are going to get them to "go back home" is to endorse more ethical trade and subsidies, and to not think in terms of us vs. them. Because we are all "them." Thinking otherwise is what got the world into its current situation in the first place.
Now, this is completely off track of honor killings, but it gives some context for international migration and how these problems came to be in your neighborhood. It's complicated, and there is no easy solution... certainly not "go back to where you came from," which is entirely unhelpful and simplistic.