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roachboy · 08-25-2007, 10:08 AM

if you think about it jj, the linkage is pretty simple: if you see class as a mode of domination in an "objective" sense (think a map of the existing order that plots distribution of wealth, say), it's obvious that there would be a subjective flipside to it.

you can occupy a class position that can be defined analytically as dominated and still not internalize the idea that you are dominated.

if you internalize it subjectively, you are fucked--you would allow bourgeois ideology, which is geared around your exclusion in a sense--to define you. so you'd see yourself and what is possible only in terms of exclusion.

to translate it into the popsych language of this thread, you'd be all about "negativity" because that's most of what telling yourself that you are dominated and seeing yourself only in those terms will lead you to.

there is a way in which revolutionary politics can be seen as a project about reversing the sense of being-dominated, realigning the subjective state with the objective situation by enabling people to see domination as arbitrary. this is necessary if you are even dreaming about enabling folk to act politically. a group of people who really believe that the political and economic orders they live under are rational or necessary, and who find themselves dominated or excluded within that order will so no alternative to it. they'll see their position as justified. no possibility of acting. none at all.

i use the "pop-psych" terminology to differentiate "negativity" in this thread from the negative in a hegelian sense. which matters if you know anything about marx.

and i dont like the objective/subjective split--it's arbitrary.
but this isnt a particularly technical conversation, so the split functions.

it seems pretty straightforward.
i dont see what you're objecting to. if the problem is the use of old-school marxian categories, we can certainly have a---um---discussion about that--maybe here, maybe not.

for what it's worth, i dont really operate with these categories in this old-school sense. but that's another matter entirely.

08-25-2007, 10:08 AM	#73 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	if you think about it jj, the linkage is pretty simple: if you see class as a mode of domination in an "objective" sense (think a map of the existing order that plots distribution of wealth, say), it's obvious that there would be a subjective flipside to it. you can occupy a class position that can be defined analytically as dominated and still not internalize the idea that you are dominated. if you internalize it subjectively, you are fucked--you would allow bourgeois ideology, which is geared around your exclusion in a sense--to define you. so you'd see yourself and what is possible only in terms of exclusion. to translate it into the popsych language of this thread, you'd be all about "negativity" because that's most of what telling yourself that you are dominated and seeing yourself only in those terms will lead you to. there is a way in which revolutionary politics can be seen as a project about reversing the sense of being-dominated, realigning the subjective state with the objective situation by enabling people to see domination as arbitrary. this is necessary if you are even dreaming about enabling folk to act politically. a group of people who really believe that the political and economic orders they live under are rational or necessary, and who find themselves dominated or excluded within that order will so no alternative to it. they'll see their position as justified. no possibility of acting. none at all. i use the "pop-psych" terminology to differentiate "negativity" in this thread from the negative in a hegelian sense. which matters if you know anything about marx. and i dont like the objective/subjective split--it's arbitrary. but this isnt a particularly technical conversation, so the split functions. it seems pretty straightforward. i dont see what you're objecting to. if the problem is the use of old-school marxian categories, we can certainly have a---um---discussion about that--maybe here, maybe not. for what it's worth, i dont really operate with these categories in this old-school sense. but that's another matter entirely. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-25-2007 at 10:14 AM..