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roachboy · 07-18-2007, 01:25 PM

here's another way of making the same kind of point: "human nature" is a kind of therapeutic category in that any psychotherapy involves, at one level or another, enabling people to function within a given order no matter the nature of that order.

in a way this makes sense because no matter what you think of the political system within which you operate, no matter how fundamentally you oppose it, unless you are in the middle of some revolution you have to function within it.

so notions like "human nature" and their origins in the notion of sin *naturalize* the existing social arrangement.
they collapse ALL forms of opposition into ONE act, which is then recoded as subjective and evaluated as WRONG following that sad, debilitating logic of christianity and its sin-fetish.
you see this all over the old testament: god backs the existing order NO MATTER how it is organized and you are wrong for thinking that there could possibly be any problems with it.
so the function of notions of "human nature" and their correlates in the idea of "sin" are the same: they are about getting you to submit to the existing order because it exists and for no other reason.
if you find that compelling, then you can have it.
personally, i find it to be a joke.

so where does this leave us?

well, first off if you want to think in political terms you have to relativize your own position--you operate from within a particular framework and that framework shapes who and how you are.
you do not stand outside of all history looking at it as if it were a tv show. general narratives concerning how "people are" only operate for you as they do because they fit into the ideological context that you repeat continually, even in the smallest perceptual action.
these narratives seem to appeal because they resonate with (or inform) ideological positions that function in your immediate context.
they have no legitimacy--or even interest--outside that context.

so if this business of ending war necessarily involves changing the way in which this socio=political arrangement works (which is the point i made earlier somewhere, that seems to have been ignored) then nothing at all is helped by throwing about ideological propositions like "human nature is x or y" simply because when you do that you impose the logic of exactly the political context that needs to be changed.

it is circular, in other words.

there are a couple of interesting posts that have come up today that i'd like to address, but i cant see them without vaporizing this one, so i'll get back to them a bit later.

=================
powerclown: "literary masturbation"?---what the fuck are you talking about? if you want to take on the arguments i am making, do it directly.

07-18-2007, 01:25 PM	#125 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	here's another way of making the same kind of point: "human nature" is a kind of therapeutic category in that any psychotherapy involves, at one level or another, enabling people to function within a given order no matter the nature of that order. in a way this makes sense because no matter what you think of the political system within which you operate, no matter how fundamentally you oppose it, unless you are in the middle of some revolution you have to function within it. so notions like "human nature" and their origins in the notion of sin naturalize the existing social arrangement. they collapse ALL forms of opposition into ONE act, which is then recoded as subjective and evaluated as WRONG following that sad, debilitating logic of christianity and its sin-fetish. you see this all over the old testament: god backs the existing order NO MATTER how it is organized and you are wrong for thinking that there could possibly be any problems with it. so the function of notions of "human nature" and their correlates in the idea of "sin" are the same: they are about getting you to submit to the existing order because it exists and for no other reason. if you find that compelling, then you can have it. personally, i find it to be a joke. so where does this leave us? well, first off if you want to think in political terms you have to relativize your own position--you operate from within a particular framework and that framework shapes who and how you are. you do not stand outside of all history looking at it as if it were a tv show. general narratives concerning how "people are" only operate for you as they do because they fit into the ideological context that you repeat continually, even in the smallest perceptual action. these narratives seem to appeal because they resonate with (or inform) ideological positions that function in your immediate context. they have no legitimacy--or even interest--outside that context. so if this business of ending war necessarily involves changing the way in which this socio=political arrangement works (which is the point i made earlier somewhere, that seems to have been ignored) then nothing at all is helped by throwing about ideological propositions like "human nature is x or y" simply because when you do that you impose the logic of exactly the political context that needs to be changed. it is circular, in other words. there are a couple of interesting posts that have come up today that i'd like to address, but i cant see them without vaporizing this one, so i'll get back to them a bit later. ================= powerclown: "literary masturbation"?---what the fuck are you talking about? if you want to take on the arguments i am making, do it directly. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 07-18-2007 at 01:28 PM..