Originally Posted by roachboy

uh, you really didnt understand, did you cyn?

first off, what could possibly be vaguer than some "human nature"? what is it? a series of features that you get from parables--you know, the stories that start off by telling you THIS IS A STORY ABOUT GREED or LUST or blah blah blah and then provide you with "details" about greed or lust or blah blah blah. what does it do? well in most situations, it does nothing. in political contexts, it erases the fact that human beings live in communities and that communities are built around particular types of social relations that may or may not be functional. like private property: what would greed mean in a context without private property? or pride: behind this is the assumption that every human being has a "place" and should stay there. lust? same business. most of the conditions these vague categories point to are SOCIAL are the results of political choices--and what these categories and the stories that they are embedded in tell you is STAY WHERE YOU ARE. the order of things is necessarily good because god sanctions it unless it isnt good in which case god does not sanction it (depends on which side youre on i suppose). what they tell you is: THE EXISTING ORDER IS LEGITIMATE BECAUSE IT EXISTS----so crap like "sin" or "expressions of human nature" function to eliminate the fact that we live in social systems which may or may not be functional, may or may not be desirable and push all political thinking and action back onto pathology, deviance, error.

so this notion of "human nature" functions to erase the possibility of thinking in political terms.

and every one of the categories involved with this "human nature" is hopelessly vague. every operation involved with application is entirely circular.

so no, cyn, you really didnt understand.
maybe this helps.

Originally Posted by willravel

You have no idea what he said?

I don't see it that way. This is about setting a real world goal and discussing what course or courses of action would have the highest probability of success. If we want to know why people wage war, why work in generalities (i.e. 'human nature')? Wouldn't it be better to speak in specifics?

Back in post #84, I named some recent wars:
Israel vs. Lebanon, 2006
US and allied occupiers vs. Iraqi rebellion
JEM vs. Janjaweed, vs. AU, Darfur, 2003-present
US vs. Baath Iraqi Regime, 2003
Second Chechen War, 1999-present

With a bit of research, one could lay out the rationale and intent behind each of these conflicts and then address them. I see that as a better course of action than chasing vague, undefinable terms like 'human nature'.

Originally Posted by willravel

I'm telling you 'human nature' is a useless term in the context of this thread. It stops debate because it's so open ended, vague, and yes outdated, that human nature can't be argued. I'm reminded of when I'm debating god and someone starts presupposing god. It kills the discussion, and any hope of progress.

How does one 'study human nature'? You watch people glutton?

If you'd like for me to pull up studies about twins I can, but it'd be a massive threadjack. Of my own thread. My point was that you made up a study in your mind, and thus the results aren't exactly reliable. What if Jung did that?

The analogy doesn't work because you fixed the results. I can make analogies, too, but it doesn't mean anything.

What do predictions based on look have to do with human nature? I think you're getting lost.

I'm not in the field. I have my degree, after helping my mom get her doctorate.

It could be one of a thousand things. You're asking hypotheticals where I'd need real world. And I'm not even licensed. With a licensed psychologist, you'd have a better chance of figuring it out.

Step 1: One of my favorite John Lennon quotes was "give peace a chance". I dare you to argue with that ideal. So I think we can all agree that peace is better than war.

Step 2: For those who make war, why do you do it? What makes war a better alternative than peace? Why is killing someone going to achieve a greater good in your mind?

Step 3: How can we stop war?