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Originally Posted by Frosstbyte
The gist of the point is that the whole notion of secret wiretaps with secret lists (however long or short) goes against one of this country's most fundamental principles, the right against search and seizure without a warrant.
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I get that, but there is the principle and there is the reality. The question is complex when it comes to drawing a line and determining when it has been crossed. The reality is that this is a very complex subject.
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The whole problem with secret anything is NO ONE (except for them) knows who they are looking at and our rights as Americans GUARANTEE us the right to NOT have them looking at us without just cause. If you're right (and it would be wonderful if you were), they're not looking at anyone but those people who they think are terrorists. I don't think they have the scruples to keep from looking in other places on other people that they don't have just cause to look at because they're looking for just cause.
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Who is "them"? Why are "they" not "us"? If you do something in public and I track what you do, without your knowledge, is that "secrete" even though what you did is in the open public realm? If you use a wireless phone, baby monitor, intercom, etc., and I pick up the signal and listen without your knowledge is that a violation of your Constitutional rights? Why do you think "they" are interested in what you order on your pizza, why would anyone care? At what point does the use of "black box" or GPS information become a violation of you Constitutional rights? If authorities track your location after you have dialed 911 is that an illegal use of you phone records? there are hundreds of questions related to this issue, and the pretense that it is clear cut is wrong in my opinion.
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They're spying on American citizens. How does that not concern you, regardless of whether or not you have something to hide?
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Something like a repeat of The McCarthy hearings would concern me. I am not worried about "them" paying much attention to me talking to my wife about what we are having for dinner over the telephone. But, I live a pretty boring life - if I had something to hide, I guess I would be worried.
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Originally Posted by willravel
Hmm.. well it depends on what month. It was about how Iraq was involved in 9/11, then it was about positive certain proof of WMDs in Iraq, then it was liberation, then it was to stop a civil war. I wonder what's next?
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Ask the folks who voted to use military force against Iraq. I know why Bush asked for the authority, I don't know why some voted for it. Then, ask them why the voted to continue funding.
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You're assuming that the wiretap program is 100% altruistic.
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I am sure there are a few government flunkies who want to see who Paris Hilton is calling. If they abuse their authority they should be fired and possibly put in jail. The goals of the program are as stated. If the Administration is using information for political gain, they should be put in jail. If there was any proof of that I would be 100% behind impeachment.
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The government wouldn't spy on non-terrorist threats, or pretend that people who clearly aren't terrorist are in order to spy on them.
I'm saying that's a naive attitude, based on all the misinformation and lies from the administration. Why the heck would you trust these people?
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I don't trust anyone outside of my immediate family. during our history there have been abuse of government power, by individuals. Sooner or later those individuals will be held accountable for their actions, in this life or whatever comes next. It is unfortunate but life is not fair, occasionally innocent people will be the victim of those who are corrupt. In this case, I don't see any victims.